Snape and healing (WAS: Snape as Neville's teacher )

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 168439


> Dana:
> The problem is that we are now debating knowledge of magic against 
a 
> profession that needs compassion to heal the sick. Snape does not 
> have a passion to heal the sick, he has knowledge about how to brew 
> potions and counterbalance Dark Curses. 

zgirnius:
That healing was not simply administering the countercurse to the 
curse Snape knew. Snape also showed some 'bedside manner' in his 
comments about scarring, and also some knowledge of the proper 
treatment for scars, as this is a traditional use of dittany in 
herbal medicine.

>Dana:
> It doesn't state that Snape was the only one that knew Mandrakes 
can 
> heal the petrified. 

zgirnius:
I never said it does. Hermione Granger, a second year, knows this. I 
said he brewed the potion.

Dana:
> He can brew Lupin's potion but it doesn't mean 
> Snape would ever have wanted to go to the trouble of inventing such 
> a potion to help the poor werewolves. 

zgirnius:
He cared enough to reformulate Euphoria to eliminate an undesired 
side-effect. 

Dana:
> he does not have 
> to compassion to heal the sick and therefore he is not a healer. He 
> just has knowledge. 

zgirnius:
Really? He doesn't and never did? I missed that part. 
  
> Dana:
> Tom Riddle knows more about Magic then anyone, even DD admits this, 
> but would that make Voldemort a healer even if he could lift Dark 
> Curses, probably with more ease then Snape could? 

zgirnius:
LV knowing how to do it does not make him a healer. If he actually 
used this knowledge to lift dark curses off people, yes, it 
absolutely would mean he had healed them, and is thus a healer. Note 
the inventor of the Entrail-Expelling Curse was a Healer, it says so 
next to his portrait, hung in St. Mungo's. He, of course, was one in 
the technical sense that he was employed by the hospital in this 
capacity, but I presume also in the less technical sesnse that he was 
a person who healed other people. (In addition to expelling someone 
or something's entrails.)

> Dana:
> No, it doesn't 
> because the man does not have compassion to heal the sick.

zgirnius:
This is a use of the term so narrow that there are probably Healers 
at St. Mungo's who are not healers. It is not how I use the word.

  
> Dana:
> No, a pharmacist is not a healer, he sells drugs and has knowledge 
> about that drugs and he can make the drugs but he can't diagnose 
all 
> ailments and is actually not legally qualified to do so. The only 
> drugs he can sell to cure an illness (by himself) are those that do 
> not need a prescription,

zgirnius:
This is precisely why I consider this argument semantics. In the 
United States, where I live, *no* antibiotics to be taken internally 
may be sold without a prescription. Should I therefore consider 
European pharmacists healers, but not their US counterparts? To me 
this seems obviously silly.

> Dana:
> Snape does not stabilize the people he counterfeits the curse, just 
> like a park ranger can give a victim of a snake bite first aid to 
> give the victim enough time to get to a hospital, antiserum does 
not 
> cure the victim of the effects of the snake bite it only 
neutralizes 
> the venom. 

zgirnius:
I can see that a park ranger or knowledgeable bystander would 
administer first aid when necessary, but this is also the job of a 
paramedic (the guy who works in an ambulance and keeps people alive 
during their drive to the hospital, in case the word is not 
familiar). This is what I compared Snape's action to in my post, 
since it seems pretty clear this is what he did in Katie's case, by 
whatever means. And yes, I would consider paramedic to be a healing 
profession. 

By the way, the insistence on diagnosis and prescription of treatment 
and administration thereof excludes nurses from being healers as 
well, so I guess Poppy is not a healer.

> Dana:
> We do not see Snape heal people besides Draco, his 
> knowledge does not have anything to do with the human body but with 
> the curses themselves. 

zgirnius:
Regarding a knowledge of the human body - neither I nor anyone 
besides, perhaps, Rowling, knows what it takes to invent a Dark curse 
like Sectumsempra, for the excellent reason that it has not been 
explained in the books. The curse has a specific effect on the human 
body, as does the counter. For all we know, it could require a 
knowledge of the  human body and how it functions to invent such 
spells. I cannot accept this is a fact to consider in our discussion.

As to the first point, I do not analyze my data sets, my knowledge 
does. I don't have a passion to analyze datasets, I do it because my 
employer pays me well to do it. I would say it is still *I*, and not 
the abstract knowledge that I possess, that gets the work done. I am 
a stataisticianm, that is, a person who does statistical analyses for 
pay. After all, that knowledge did not wake up one morning and decide 
to alight in my neurons. (Alas!) Instead, I was in school for some 20 
years of my life acquiring the basics, and still make efforts to 
acquire more of it as I deem necessary. I imagine that Snape's 
experience is similar. He had to be interested in how to counter 
curses to some degree, in order to make the effort required to learn 
it.

> Dana:
> Who says he diagnosed Katie and not the necklace? 

zgirnius:
If I take my son to the doctor and tell her he has swallowed some of 
the contents of a bottle of household chemical, my doctor will 
probably look first at the label, and then at my boy. And what she 
sees on that label is very likely to influence her treatment 
decisions. Ditto the necklace.

> Dana:
> Again I am not 
> trying to downplay Snape's knowledge but you also should not 
> romanticize his efforts in to 

zgirnius:
Oh, this is about me, personally, and my overly romantic tendencies? 
I thought the discussion was about Severus Snape, a fictional 
character in the Harry Potter series of books. 

> Dana:
> assuming he has the natural instincts 
> to be a healer because he doesn't posses the compassion for it. 

zgirnius: 
I neither made not stated such an assumption. In Snape's healing of 
Draco, the healing was achieved by performing a countercurse. When 
dark magic is causing someone to bleed to death, and the countercurse 
stops that and causes the wounds to knit, a healing has been 
achieved. All that was left (in Draco's case) was to take steps to 
lessen the cosmetic damage the curse might have caused.

If any suggestion made in this thread has been 'romantic', it is 
that 'natural instincts' are a sound basis for medical treatment, or 
that 'compassion' is a necessary component. Snape, and (I most 
sincerely hope) the pediatrician I take my boys to, both make their 
diagnoses and treat their patients on the basis of the skills and 
knowledge they have acquired in a lifetime of learning and real-life 
experience. If instincts guide them to make fewer mistakes, and 
compassion makes the treatement more pleasant for the patients, or 
makes them work harder to gain and exercise those skills, excellent. 
But the skills are what matters most (or why do we bother with 
medical schools?)

> Dana:
> He has a passion for knowledge and be the best in the things he is 
> interested in but that does not qualify him automatically as a 
> healer. And your suggestion that he might always wanted to become a 
> healer is ridiculous because he came to school knowing more (dark) 
> curses then most kids in the 7th year. 

zgirnius:
I do not find my suggestion ridiculous. But if it has amused my 
fellow listmembers, it was well-made. 

That a historical Healer of some significance (his portrait still 
hangs at St. Mungo's) was famous for inventing a (dark) curse 
suggests to me that there is no contradiction in the Potterverse 
between an interest in Dark Arts and an interest in pursuing the 
profession of Healer.

Snape speaks lovingly of the Dark Arts as a many-headed hydra that 
requires flexible and inventive defenses to fight. I do think he 
prides himself on his own flexibility and inventiveness (deservedly 
so, in my view), and I take this lecture at face value. He must know 
what he is fighting well, and considers this knowledge necessary. 
Whether his motivation is compassion or the intellectual challenge is 
of little import to a boy bleeding to death in a bathroom. For 
whatever reason, Snape had the knowledge and skill to heal him, and 
did so.

I keep using Draco as the example because it is the only one on which 
we have details. He really *was* healed by Snape, and we saw it all. 
Claiming Katie was or wasn't, or that Dumbeldore was or wasn't, seems 
pointless, as we do not know.

> Dana:
> Curses are harmful to people, 
> someone with a natural instinct to be a healer would never want to 
> know so many ways to harm another human being.

zgirnius:
It is canon that someone who was a Healer by profession, found ways 
to hurt people sufficiently interesting to have invented a new one.

> Dana:
> Snape did not know 
> these curses so he could one day counterfeit them, he knew them 
> because he wanted to stand out knowing more about the Dark Arts 
> then any other student.  

zgirnius:
This is an opinion stated as fact. It is not a fact. If it were, I 
would have read it in my copy of the series.

My own view on the matter is that Snape doubtless did know lots of 
spells for a firstie, some of which may have been Dark, and might 
even have started in on inventing them. His motives for doing so 
would have been, as I see it, a combination of intellectual curiosity 
about how such things work, possibly family influence (if the Princes 
had an interest), and a wish to have the tools to stand up for 
himself.

> Dana:
> No, it isn't because it amplifies that Snape was indeed to his 
> elbows in to the Dark Arts as he proofs when he is called up on 
this 
> knowledge. 

zgirnius:
All his use of the knowledge as an adult proves is that, as an adult, 
he knows it. It proves nothing about what he knew when he was eleven. 
I had hoped my example would make this clear. Unfrotunately I cannot 
do better.
 
> Dana:
> Sirius wasn't lying that Snape used this knowledge to gain 
> himself some fame 

zgirnius:
Sirius does not say Snape learned the curses he allegedly knew to 
become famous. 

> GoF, "Career Advice":
> "Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I've wondered why 
Dumbledore hired him. Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark 
Arts, he was famous for it at school. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, 
he was," Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each 
other. "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half 
the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who 
nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

zgirnius:
See? These are separate statements. At some point in school, Snape 
was famous for a fascination with the Dark Arts. Whether this 
reputation pleased Snape, caused him to feel slandered and negatively 
stereotyped, or was something he gave little thought, is not 
mentioned in the books. 

And the other statement, he knew a lot of curses as a first year, and 
again Sirius does not speculate why this may be. A fascination with 
DADA is an alternative explanation to the one you propose, likewise 
speculative.

For the record, I do not suggest Sirius Black lies about Snape, so I 
would prefer this not be implied. I do think he knew little about 
Snape's motivations in school, and cared even less. He could thus be 
quite mistaken in his assumptions.

> Dana:
> It wasn't Defense 
> against the Dark Arts Snape was famous for but the use of the Dark 
> Arts. 

zgirnius:
I have posted the relevant canon quote. Anyone who cares, may verify 
that in fact, Sirius said nothing about Snape's *use* of the Dark 
Arts.

> Dana:
> He does nothing about Hermione's enlarged teeth either. Just 
because 
> he functions as the pharmacist for the hospital wing does not make 
> Madam Pomfrey work there non-important as you want to imply or that 
> she is just there to give Snape's brewed potions, who says all 
> potions Madam Pomfrey are made by Snape, she could get her supplies 
> from other sources as well, Snape would probably not have all 
> ingredients at hand and he certainly is not brewing potions every 
> second of the day to keep up the medical supplies. Just because the 
> pharmacy in a hospital wing has all medication in stock does not 
> mean you don't need the Doctor's there anymore either. 

zgirnius:
Madam Pomfrey is not the equivalent of a doctor. She is the 
equivalent of a school nurse,. Were she a doctor, the correct 
Potterverse form of address for her is known. She would be addressed 
as "Healer Pomfrey", as the Healers at St. Mungo's are addressed. She 
is not so addressed, so I conclude she is not a doctor. She is 
indubitably a healer in the same sense that Snape is, in that she 
provides health-related services to persons in need of them. This is 
her entire job description, Snape happens to render them in his role 
as DADA/Potions teacher.

It is entirely appropriate for Snape, or any other teacher, to send 
injured students to her, especially when they are supposed to be 
teaching a class. This says nothing about what they might or might 
not be able to do themselves for the students, and everything about 
what they are supposed to be doing during class (teaching).

I have never suggested Snape makes all of the potions Poppy uses. 
Skele-Gro, for one, sounds like a brand name to me. I imagine he 
makes the rare, expensive, and difficult ones that are hard to 
procure for various reasons, such as the Mandrake Restorative Draft 
in CoS, the Wolfsbane Potion in PoA, and the Veritaserum menionted in 
both GoF and OotP. (And yes, I am aware of the function of that 
potion).

> Dana:
> Just because he knows the effect of brewing a potion the wrong way 
> does not make him the diagnosing wonder of Hogwarts. 

zgirnius:
Again, I did not say he was. However, I am confident he could brew a 
potion to cure boils, could see Neville had them, and could 
administer them, for the excellent reason that *I* could do 2 and 3. 

> Dana:
> That is the problem isn't it, for some reason everything Snape does 
> is lifted to such a wonderful noble level, no one could ever reach 
> but Snape. 

zgirnius:
I see no problem.

I do think he is has been consistently characterized throughout the 
series as:

- highly intelligent (starting with the logic puzzle of PS/SS and 
ending with the revelation that he was inventing spells as a 
youngster at the end of HBP),
- possessing a high level of knowledge and skills in at least three 
distinct areas of magic (Potions, Dark Arts/DADA, 
Legilimency/Occlumency)

And the end of HBP strongly hints he is also pretty powerful in terms 
of fighting ability. This is suggested to me by the respect and 
intimidation of the other Death Eaters, and his ability to deal with 
Harry without even hurting him. (Yes, I am aware he hurt Harry, but 
this was after Harry had lost the fight. He did not need to do so in 
order to defend himself). I think it was hinted as early as the 
Duelling Club scene with Lockhart.

> Dana:
His character is romanticized to the maximum contributing 
> characteristics to the man that he just does not posses like being 
a 
> noble teacher for instance. 

zgirnius:
Well, he is a teacher. Though, in light of the use of the word healer 
in this thread, I suppose that seemingly simple statement might be up 
for debate. 

If he were also noble, that would make him a noble teacher. It is an 
adjective I could imagine applying to DDM!Snape.

> Dana:
> He is not given any medals for it now is he? 

zgirnius:
Nor for things he has done that were far more difficult and far more 
dangerous. 

--zgirnius, who *so* hopes Snape does not acquire a much-deserved 
Order of Merlin, First Class, posthumously.