[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 168481

On 9 May 2007 at 21:27, phoenixgod2000 wrote:

> 
> > Betsy Hp:
> > I think the reason I don't see Snape as abusing his authority is
> that 
> > I see a rational (though mistaken) reason for his using Harry as
> his 
> > impossible question guinea pig.  There's nothing wrong with a 
> teacher 
> > hitting his students with near impossible questions to set up what
> > sort of classroom he's going to run. 
> 
> Phoenixgod2000:
> 
> As a teacher, let me say sure there is.  You establish your 
> classroom all right, you establish it as an unfair class and kids 
> will tune you out.  There are few better ways to get your students
> to have their backs up and resist you than what Snape did.  Look at
> what happened with Harry. How many students over the years have 
> decided they never want to have anything to do with potions because
> Snape killed their interest before it had the chance to develop?

Shaun:

Also speaking as a teacher, let me say that I disagree.

There's no one right way to teach. There's numerous ways, some of which work better for 
certain teachers than others, some of which work better with certain students than others. 
Teachers need to find the style that makes them the most effective teacher they can be. It 
may not be the same style as the teacher down the hall, who may be just as good a teacher, 
they just have a different style. And even if it's a good style, it may not work with all students.

I think that part of the reason this argument comes up repeatedly is because a lot of people 
seem to assume that the way they learned best as a child is somehow the right way for a 
teacher to teach. It isn't - it was just the right way *for* you. There may have been other 
children in the class who were not learning from that teacher, because just as teachers need 
to find the style that makes them the most effective teacher they can be, and that can be one 
of a range of styles, students can also learn in a range of different ways - none of which need 
to be assumed to be inferior or superior than any others.

I think those of us who *did* learn very effectively from Snape-like teachers - and I am 
somebody who most definitely did - are the ones who tend to see his teaching style as valid. 
And why shouldn't we? It worked for us. It was valid for us. No, maybe it didn't work for the 
kid sitting in the next desk over - but there may have been other classes and other teachers 
with a different style who taught that kid effectively and didn't get through to us. That was 
certainly the case for me. Some teachers who seemed to be perfectly effective with most 
students were anything but when it came to me. That's just the way it is.

No one teaching style is effective with every single student. But I can say that the style Snape 
seems to me to have is *very* similar to the style that some of my teachers used with me, 
and was very effective.

You ask: "How many students over the years have decided they never want to have anything 
to do with potions because Snape killed their interest before it had the chance to develop?"

My question is "How many students over the years have decided they want to master this 
complex art and subtle Science because Snape made them feel that this was a challenge 
they wanted to meet?"

And I think it is every bit as valid a question. I certainly accept that there may be children who 
would have their interest damaged by the Snape approach - but I am also *very* well aware 
that there are children who would be fired up by that approach - because I was one of them.

And to me, it seems that Hermione is likely to be in that grouping as well - very much in that 
grouping. I think Harry belongs in it as well - Look at what happened with Harry, you say? 
Well, I do look at what happened with Harry and to me, I see a boy, who though he doesn't 
much like Snape's classes - certainly seems committed to doing well in them. Some kids do 
learn in these environments very well.

> Phoenixgod2000:
>
> Snape actuallty starts out well with his Potions are powerful speech
> but undercuts it right away by setting up his classroom as 
> adversarial. That is no way to get students to love a subject he 
> plainly has passion for.  

Shaun:

It worked for me (-8

Seriously - my first day of Form III, I met my Latin master for the first time (he also taught 
Ancient Greek, but I didn't start that immediately) , and he is the most Snape-like man, I can 
imagine. He really is. And his first lesson was *very* similar - he started off with a speech 
about what he could give us, what he could teach us - and then he started asking us 
questions that none of us had a clue about. 

I came out of that class wanting to prove to that man that I could do these things.

(This teacher, by the way, is well aware of his reputation - a few years ago, I asked him what 
he tought of the idea - he revealed I wasn't the first to tell him he reminded me of Snape, and 
he agreed the characterisation was accurate - but he also told me the following (and gave me 
permission to quote it:

"I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely effective teacher. What I am 
not is warm and cuddly. I don't know how to be. But I do know how to turn obnoxious 
adolescent boys into people capable of appreciating the combined culture of 25 centuries. 
Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without making a few boys cry. Tough. 
They'll thank me for it as adults. Or they'll hate me. Either way, they'll be better for it." 

This man was a *very* effective teacher. His students achieved almost universally good 
marks, and most of them who went on to the higher levels of the subjects realise how much 
he gave them).

Phoenixgod2000:

> It may or may not be an abuse of authority but it certainly isn't 
> good teaching.  It doesn't make the student interested in finding 
> the answers to his questions, which is what a skilled teacher could
> easily do. The job of a teacher is to convey knowledge, not to make
> students feel stupid.  

Shaun:

It *can* make the student interested in finding the answers - again, it did for me. It was a 
challenge delivered and I chose to rise to that challenge. I *wanted* to do well in that class in 
a way I didn't want to do well in any other classes.

Snape may not be everybody's cup of tea as a teacher - fair enough - but I think we need to 
be cautious when assessing him in not assuming that "a bad teacher for *me*" equals "a bad 
teacher."

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia