Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 168488


> Shaun:
> 
> Also speaking as a teacher, let me say that I disagree.
> 
> There's no one right way to teach.

I would agree that there are lots of right ways to teach.  there are 
also plenty of wrong ways.

> Teachers need to find the style that makes them the most effective 
teacher they can be. It 
> may not be the same style as the teacher down the hall, who may be 
just as good a teacher, 
> they just have a different style. And even if it's a good style, 
it may not work with all students.

I agree here as well.  Not every style works with every student.  
But I have made a point of studying teaching styles. I find the 
differences between teachers fascinating and I'm always looking for 
ways to improve myself.  And in my experience, while Snape's style 
can work with some students, it is among the most inefficient of 
styles because far more students will react poorly to it than will 
react positively to it.  And when it is effective, it is mostly 
effective on older, more mature students rather than 11 year olds. 
 
> I think that part of the reason this argument comes up repeatedly 
is because a lot of people 
> seem to assume that the way they learned best as a child is 
somehow the right way for a 
> teacher to teach. It isn't - it was just the right way *for* you. 

that's not the arguement I am making. I am an auditory learner. I 
learn best through almost pure lecture and I realize how uncommon 
that is. I'm speaking from efficiency.  Snape's style just isn't all 
that great because it isn't the style that will do the greatest good 
for the greatest number. It is just the style that is best suited 
for his personality.  

That doesn't make it a great style.

 
> I think those of us who *did* learn very effectively from Snape-
like teachers - and I am 
> somebody who most definitely did - are the ones who tend to see 
his teaching style as valid. 
> And why shouldn't we? It worked for us. It was valid for us.

But were you the typical student? was what was best for you the best 
for most of the class?  I think you are making the same mistake. I 
think you are assuming because it worked for you it must be a good 
system.  That is just plain bad logic :)


> You ask: "How many students over the years have decided they never 
want to have anything 
> to do with potions because Snape killed their interest before it 
had the chance to develop?"
> 
> My question is "How many students over the years have decided they 
want to master this 
> complex art and subtle Science because Snape made them feel that 
this was a challenge 
> they wanted to meet?"

 > And I think it is every bit as valid a question. I certainly 
accept that there may be children who 
> would have their interest damaged by the Snape approach - but I am 
also *very* well aware 
> that there are children who would be fired up by that approach - 
because I was one of them.

Once again, how old you were you when you were fired up by that 
approach? I'd bet that you'd be older than Harry in that situation. 
I can see how Snape might work with older students, but this was a 
beginning class, trying to get across the fundamental principlesof 
something new to children. You don't start off a fundamental 
principles class by calling kids stupid and making a couple look 
like fools. You just don't if you want to get the best out of very 
young students. these aren't 15 or 16 year olds. they are eleven and 
have absolutely no grounding in the subject snape was teaching 
unless they just happen to have memorized their textbook which is a 
little much to ask for the first day of school.

> And to me, it seems that Hermione is likely to be in that grouping 
as well - very much in that 
> grouping.

Hermione is a pretty unusual case.  there aren't many students like 
her around. you could put her in pretty much any class and she would 
do well if she wanted to.  She gets good grades in Binn's class for 
god's sake!  To me that says nothing about Snape's teaching style 
and everything about Hermione's desire to learn.

I think Harry belongs in it as well - Look at what happened with 
Harry, you say? 
> Well, I do look at what happened with Harry and to me, I see a 
boy, who though he doesn't 
> much like Snape's classes - certainly seems committed to doing 
well in them.

Harry wants to pass the class, which is a vastly different animal 
than doing well.  And do you think if he didn't need the class to be 
an Auror, he would even bother with the class?

> Shaun:
> 
> It worked for me (-8

Wouldn't work on me.

there, now our annecdotal stories cancel each other out :)
 

> "I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely 
effective teacher. What I am 
> not is warm and cuddly. I don't know how to be. But I do know how 
to turn obnoxious 
> adolescent boys into people capable of appreciating the combined 
culture of 25 centuries. 
> Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without 
making a few boys cry. Tough. 
> They'll thank me for it as adults. Or they'll hate me. Either way, 
they'll be better for it." 

Sounds like an obnoxious guy with an ego problem to me. I don't even 
want to think about what I would have done if I had had someone like 
him when I was in my less self controlled high school days :)

I liked the teachers who presented the subject as a problem to be 
solved, one I could discover if I worked hard enough and wanted it 
enough. you don't need to be mean to do that.  you need to be firm, 
but more importantly, you need to be interesting.  Cutting me off at 
the knees and establishing my 'ignorance' on the first day would do 
the opposite of that. 
 
> It *can* make the student interested in finding the answers - 
again, it did for me. It was a 
> challenge delivered and I chose to rise to that challenge. I 
*wanted* to do well in that class in 
> a way I didn't want to do well in any other classes.

It's a matter of tone.  Making it a challenge is good. It's what I 
do in my classrooms.  But you have to present the challenge in such 
a way as to make the students want to meet the challenge. I don't 
think that Snape does that successfully for most of the class. From 
the way students seem to talk about Snape, he is something to be 
endured, not someone to learn from.

That is bad.
 
> Snape may not be everybody's cup of tea as a teacher - fair 
enough - but I think we need to 
> be cautious when assessing him in not assuming that "a bad teacher 
for *me*" equals "a bad 
> teacher."

I would agree that we should be cautious about assiging bad and good 
to something as subjective as teaching.

Still, I am strangely okay with going out on the limb of saying that 
he is a bad teacher :)

Phoenixgod2000