Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 168500

 
> Shaun:

> The students who react well to it are as entitled to an education
that meets their needs as the 
> students who react badly to it.
 
> Why should the (say) 20% of children who would learn well with this
style of teaching 
> CONSTANTLY have to see their needs sacrificed for the other 80%?

Because that's the real world?

I sympathize and understand where you are coming from. I do. But I
made my teaching bones by working in the inner city of the California
Public School System. I had 40 kids in a class. I had students who
could barely string sentences together in English.  And I was teaching
History, the one class virtually no student respects.  A teacher does
what he can with the situation he is given.  And when you have a huge
glut of students that all need to be taught, the greatest good for the
greatest number is the best that a lot of over worked teachers can do.

kids like who you were, gifted, great kids, slip through the cracks
all the time and every teacher who hasn't had his soul destroyed by
the bureaucracy of the educational system hates that fact.  We try to
catch who we can, but no one can get them all.  Every teacher I have
ever met knows that we don't always do enough for the minority of
students who, for a variety of reasons don't respond well to
traditional school, but when you have such huge numbers of students it
is just not always practical. 

> If a school is teaching 80% of its students well, the other 20% can
be ignored?
> 
> I don't think anybody would call that good teaching.

Its not perfect teaching but I think if you are reaching most of the
students most of the time you are doing a pretty good job.
 
> Just for a second consider this - can you imagine for a moment how
much it *hurts* me to 
> hear the forms of teaching that *worked best* for me in environments
where ninety percent of 
> my schooling didn't work, being derided as *bad teaching*?

I can, because its the same hurt I get when I hear people talk about
Snape's 'old school' teaching methods verses newer methods that are
described contemptuously as 'touchy-feely' as if those are the only
two options for teachers--Ass or Sap.  and since I'm not an ass, I
must be a sap.

Just because I don't chew nails and spit bullets doesn't mean we spend
every class period sitting in a circle talking about self esteem and
gazing at our navels.

> Just imagine how much *worse* it feels when some people go even
further and call it 'child 
> abuse'.

There is a vicious personal element to the Harry/Snape relationship
that goes beyond simple classroom philosophy that I think can be
characterized as abusive.  That is not wholly Snape's fault. 
Dumbledore should have reigned him in and never does.

> I believe that all children are entitled to an education that
addresses their needs. 

Absolutely. Get started on that and I'll sign up in a second :)

> But that is *not* the situation that exists at Hogwarts. Not all the
teachers are Severus 
> Snape's.

But he is the only potion teacher.
 
> Even if only 20% of the pupils at Hogwarts benefit from Snape's
teaching style, what is wrong 
> with 20% of students having 14% of classes meeting *their* needs?
What is wrong with one 
> fifth of the students having just one teacher out of seven
delivering a class that is aimed at 
> them, rather than everybody else?

Nothing is wrong with that. But that means that every other student is
getting a much worse education in a core subject that seems pretty
darn important.  I don't think that's all right either.   When you are
the only teacher of your subject at your school--and it's a required
class, I think you have a duty to be a little more accessible than a
teacher teaching a niche elective.
 
> We're not talking about a situation here where the students only
have one teacher - we are 
> talking about a situation in which they have a minimum of seven
teachers, only one of whom 
> is Severus Snape.

But once again, he is the only teacher for a core subject. That
necessitates being more flexible.

> Incidentally, with the most-Snapish of them all, I had the rather
odd experience of doing really 
> well in one of his classes, while doing *very* *very* poorly in his
other class at the same time. 
> So I saw it from both ends. His teaching style was the same in both
classes. The subjects 
> were extremely similar subjects. What was different was my reaction
to the classes.

That makes absolutely no sense at all :)  if it was his teaching style
that responded to so well, why would changing classes matter at all?
  
> No, probably not - but we cannot equate enjoying a class with
learning successfully in it. 
> True, many people do enjoy the classes they do well in, but it's not
a requirement. It's just a 
> nice bonus.

True, but we were specifically talking and Hermione and Harry
responding to Snape's teaching methods. You said you thought Harry
responded to Snape's class. I disagree. If Harry had responded, he
would have had a fire lit under him. A fire to learn everything he
could about potions.  And he doesn't get that fire.  Instead, Potions
becomes a class to be endured and to do what he can to pass. He has no
love, no desire for the subject--which if Snape were a great teacher
he would have.  If Harry didn't absolutely have to take the class he
would drop in a minute.  Not what I would call overwhelmingly successful.

> I'm sure it would have - but you're not the archetype for all
students. They didn't break the 
> mould after you started school.

Now be nice ;)
 
We are having an argument about whether or not Snape is a good teacher
and I have to wonder if it matters to him in the slightest. Is he
using his methods because he believes that they work or because they
fit his general disposition as an evil sourpuss and thus the path of
least resistance?

Seems to me like he only has that job because Dumbledore needed him
close by.  If he were a truly free man would he be a teacher?  Does he
have the calling?  I don't think he does and ultimately that's what
bothers me about him. I don't think he cares about the students and I
don't think he cares if they learn anything or not.  He's just marking
time and I think he's doing it at the expense of the students of
Hogwarts.  As someone who thinks of teaching as his calling that
offends me.

phoenixgod2000