[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 168492

On 10 May 2007 at 2:47, phoenixgod2000 wrote:

> I agree here as well.  Not every style works with every student.  
> But I have made a point of studying teaching styles. I find the 
> differences between teachers fascinating and I'm always looking for
> ways to improve myself.  And in my experience, while Snape's style
> can work with some students, it is among the most inefficient of 
> styles because far more students will react poorly to it than will
> react positively to it.  And when it is effective, it is mostly 
> effective on older, more mature students rather than 11 year olds.

Shaun:

I've also made a point of studying teaching styles. It's one of my hobby-horses, as it happens. 
And I am swinging into the saddle as I write this. (-8

I disagree - and my experience disagrees - that far more children react badly to this style of 
teaching than react well to it (I believe the numbers who do well and do poorly are fairly 
evenly split) - but even if I granted that point, my question then is - so what?

The students who react well to it are as entitled to an education that meets their needs as the 
students who react badly to it.

Why should the (say) 20% of children who would learn well with this style of teaching 
CONSTANTLY have to see their needs sacrificed for the other 80%?

If the only teaching styles we treat as valid are the ones that work for *most* kids, we wind up 
neglecting the education of those children who aren't in the majority.

I spent eight years in schools which catered to the majority at the expense of the minority - 
and I was part of the minority. The experience almost killed me - that's no exagerration. Sure, 
my teachers may have been using the methods that worked for *most* children - but I 
personally happen to think that at least at some point, occasionally, they might have decided 
- hey, maybe we should pay some attention to the minority as well.
  

phoenixgod2000:

> that's not the arguement I am making. I am an auditory learner. I 
> learn best through almost pure lecture and I realize how uncommon 
> that is. I'm speaking from efficiency.  Snape's style just isn't all
> that great because it isn't the style that will do the greatest good
> for the greatest number. It is just the style that is best suited 
> for his personality.  
> 
> That doesn't make it a great style.

Shaun:

The 'greatest good for the greatest number' - so nobody else matters?

If a school is teaching 80% of its students well, the other 20% can be ignored?

I don't think anybody would call that good teaching.

Just for a second consider this - can you imagine for a moment how much it *hurts* me to 
hear the forms of teaching that *worked best* for me in environments where ninety percent of 
my schooling didn't work, being derided as *bad teaching*?

Just imagine how much *worse* it feels when some people go even further and call it 'child 
abuse'.

It leaves me wondering what these people think should have happened to me? Would it have 
been better if at age 12, I had killed myself rather than been lucky enough - *finally* - after 
eight years of schooling to *finally* encounter a teaching style that worked for me in *some* 
classes.

I'd have been dead - but at least I wouldn't have had to deal with those 'abusive, bad 
teachers' - who just happen to have helped save my life (-8

I believe that all children are entitled to an education that addresses their needs. A school 
*full* of Snapes would most definitely *not* achieve that - because there would be nothing 
there for those children who *don't* learn effectively from those teachers - whether it's a 
minority or a majority those kids would be seriously disadvantaged if *all* their teachers were 
like Snape.

But that is *not* the situation that exists at Hogwarts. Not all the teachers are Severus 
Snape's.

Maybe Snape's methods are only good for a minority of students - let's go with the 20% 
number, just for arguments sake. I personally would put it higher than that, but just for a 
number.

The students at Hogwarts do seven different subjects in their first year and second year. This 
number increases from their third year onwards.

But let's use seven classes - seven different teachers.

Even if only 20% of the pupils at Hogwarts benefit from Snape's teaching style, what is wrong 
with 20% of students having 14% of classes meeting *their* needs? What is wrong with one 
fifth of the students having just one teacher out of seven delivering a class that is aimed at 
them, rather than everybody else?

We're not talking about a situation here where the students only have one teacher - we are 
talking about a situation in which they have a minimum of seven teachers, only one of whom 
is Severus Snape.

phoenixgod2000:
 
> But were you the typical student? was what was best for you the best
> for most of the class?  I think you are making the same mistake. I
> think you are assuming because it worked for you it must be a good
> system.  That is just plain bad logic :)

Shaun:

No, I wasn't a typical student. I was a very atypical student in some ways. And what I needed 
educationally was often markedly different from what most students needed.

*But* where I think my position differs from the one I am challenging is that I most explicitly 
do *not* go around claiming that the teachers who didn't work for me were bad teachers.

I tend to assume that most of them were competent teachers, and some of them were very 
good teachers. One of my old teachers has, in fact,  been voted as one of the best teachers 
in Australia a few years ago. Well... she was not very effective at all at teaching *me*. I would 
put my experiences with her as the *worst* I had with any teacher that particular year. Her 
teaching style did *not* match what I needed.

But that doesn't make her a bad teacher. It simply means we weren't a good match. And that 
is something quite different.

It seems to me that when it comes to Snape, a lot of people seem to assume that because 
they wouldn't have done well in his classes, that makes him a bad teacher.

My view is that even a good teacher - even the best teacher - has some students they are not 
right for.

I don't assume that just because a teacher worked for me that makes them a good teacher. 
*But* I do tend to think that bad teachers are the ones who can't get through to anyone at all. 
The Snape-like teachers I had - I regard them as good teachers because they didn't just get 
through to me. They got through to more than 90% of the class. 90% of the class did as well 
as they could in their subjects.

Incidentally, with the most-Snapish of them all, I had the rather odd experience of doing really 
well in one of his classes, while doing *very* *very* poorly in his other class at the same time. 
So I saw it from both ends. His teaching style was the same in both classes. The subjects 
were extremely similar subjects. What was different was my reaction to the classes.
 
phoenixgod2000:
 
> Once again, how old you were you when you were fired up by that 
> approach? I'd bet that you'd be older than Harry in that situation.
> I can see how Snape might work with older students, but this was a
> beginning class, trying to get across the fundamental principlesof
> something new to children. You don't start off a fundamental 
> principles class by calling kids stupid and making a couple look 
> like fools. You just don't if you want to get the best out of very
> young students. these aren't 15 or 16 year olds. they are eleven and
> have absolutely no grounding in the subject snape was teaching 
> unless they just happen to have memorized their textbook which is a
> little much to ask for the first day of school.

Shaun:

I was 13 when I encountered my lesser-Snape (I had two 'Snape-like' teachers - a lesser, 
and a greater - one being much more Snape-like than the others). Most of my classmates 
had encountered him at 12, but I only entered that school at 13. The greater-Snape came 
into my life a year later when I'd just turned 14.

I was unusually emotionally immature at these ages - that's not just my judgement but was 
the result of psychological assessments at the time. But in general, I would certainly agree 
that a Snape-like teacher is probably not anywhere near as likely to be as effective with 
younger children as with older - and personally I do think that Snape's methods with 11 year 
olds were at least a little over-the-top.

But I don't blame Snape for that. I blame the structure of Hogwarts. Hogwarts is, to all intents, 
and purposes, what I would call a 'secondary school' if I was looking for an equivalent to the 
education systems I am most familiar with. Where I live, kids start secondary school at 12 - 
and many of the criticisms I would make of Hogwarts also apply to those schools here for the 
same reasons (generally speaking, I tend to be rather critical of America's education system - 
but one thing I think America has overall got right is the fact that its high school starts a little 
later, and there are institutions like middle schools and junior highs for slightly younger kids - 
I was lucky that at 13, I wound up in one of the relatively few Australian schools that also 
have such a split). Hogwarts as a school seems to expect 11 year olds to learn in pretty 
much the same way as 16 year olds (we haven't seen Seventh Year yet, so I can't comment 
on that) and that's not a good assumption in my view. But it is an assumption that is outside 
the control of individual teachers - and if I was to level criticism at the teachers for failing to 
adapt to that reality, I'd be directing it just as strongly as every other teacher. We see no 
evidence that things are done differently for younger children in any other classes either.

phoenixgod2000:
 
> > And to me, it seems that Hermione is likely to be in that grouping
> as well - very much in that 
> > grouping.

Shaun:
 
> Hermione is a pretty unusual case.  there aren't many students like
> her around. you could put her in pretty much any class and she would
> do well if she wanted to.  She gets good grades in Binn's class for
> god's sake!  To me that says nothing about Snape's teaching style 
> and everything about Hermione's desire to learn.

Shaun:

My speciality area is exceptionally and profoundly gifted children - and Hermione falls very 
much into that category in my view. And, yes, she *is* a pretty unusual case because of that.

But the unusual cases are just as entitled to an education that meets their needs as any other 
children.

Hermione is certainly a child who wants to learn. But she's also a child who is perfectly willing 
to criticise what she sees as poor teaching (such as Umbridge's classes). And even to walk 
out of a class she feels is teaching her nothing (Trelawney's). Hermione will - and does - 
challenge teachers who she doesn't feel are giving her what she needs. She doesn't just sit 
back placidly, and learn.

 Also - and this is a generalisation but it is generally true - EG and PG kids do tend to do well 
in classes where strict teachers set high standards - even unreasonably high standards

phoenixgod2000:

> Harry wants to pass the class, which is a vastly different animal 
> than doing well.  And do you think if he didn't need the class to be
> an Auror, he would even bother with the class?

No, probably not - but we cannot equate enjoying a class with learning successfully in it. 
True, many people do enjoy the classes they do well in, but it's not a requirement. It's just a 
nice bonus.

phoenixgod2000:

> Sounds like an obnoxious guy with an ego problem to me. I don't even
> want to think about what I would have done if I had had someone like
> him when I was in my less self controlled high school days :)

Shaun:

Obnoxious - no. Arrogant - yes. Egotistical - yes.

But when your classes *lowest* mark is routinely higher than the *highest* mark of the 
teacher teaching the same subject down the landing (and that is despite the fact that you use 
a horrible marking system which allows students to get negative marks on your tests, while in 
his class the worst you can get is a zero - and that other fellow wasn't a bad teacher by any 
means - I experienced his classes as well), it really isn't surprising that you have a high 
opinion of your skills as a teacher.
 
phoenixgod2000:

> I liked the teachers who presented the subject as a problem to be 
> solved, one I could discover if I worked hard enough and wanted it
> enough. you don't need to be mean to do that.  you need to be firm,
> but more importantly, you need to be interesting.  Cutting me off at
> the knees and establishing my 'ignorance' on the first day would do
> the opposite of that. 

Shaun:

I'm sure it would have - but you're not the archetype for all students. They didn't break the 
mould after you started school.

No teacher's methods will work for every single child.
  
phoenixgod2000:

> It's a matter of tone.  Making it a challenge is good. It's what I
> do in my classrooms.  But you have to present the challenge in such
> a way as to make the students want to meet the challenge. I don't 
> think that Snape does that successfully for most of the class. From
> the way students seem to talk about Snape, he is something to be 
> endured, not someone to learn from.
> 
> That is bad.

Shaun:

And yet there are numerous people here on this list who are making it quite clear that Snape 
is a teacher they would have learned from and wanted to learn from. Personally the type of 
challenge a teacher like him offered is the type of challenge *I* really wanted at school - and, 
very, very rarely got - even though some other teachers tried to offer it.
 
Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia