Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168518

Pippin:
> In my case at least, that's not quite it. It's more that the 
> qualities which make Snape give Harry and Neville a hard time in
> potions are the same qualities that enable him to save their lives,
> and other students', when they're threatened by Voldemort. 

Dana:
Sorry but are these the same qualities that enables him to take 
lives? In my opinion it is a presumption that Snape saves lives 
because they are threatened by Voldemort because at this moment the 
only reason for saving Harry's life and trying to safe James's life 
that canon supports is that he owed James a debt. And it is 
interesting that DD is not believed when he tells Harry this but that 
he is believed when he states Snape can be trusted. So either DD is 
right in both or both are equally questionable. 

His saving people rate is at this moment, equals to his own claimed 
rate of killing people or being responsible for their deaths. 
And to me it is still a matter of opinion if Snape did anything to 
safe anybody out of the goodness of his heart or because of his own 
personal interest. So the qualities in question are still very 
debatable. JMHO

And I am surely of the opinion that the qualities Snape really has, 
being his own man through and through, is making him act out so 
disgracefully against his students because he has such fun with it 
and what else is he to do. It is not that he can walk out at any time 
he likes because that would make DD very suspicious about his true 
intentions now wouldn't it and like he claims he had a comfortable 
job so why not make the best of it? 

Pippin:
> Snape's single-minded ferocity and his willingness to trust his 
> own perceptions instead of following the crowd would
> make it difficult for him to stay in Voldemort's service and also 
> allow him to perceive, when no one else did, that Harry was in
> danger from a curse and not from mishandling his broom. 

Dana
Interesting because Hermione perceived this too and was far more 
effective in saving Harry then Snape was with his muttering counter-
curses. Snape like Hermione knows it takes eye contact so why not go 
to Quirrell and smack him in the head? 

Didn't he follow the crowed when he entered LV service in the first 
place? And wasn't it LV interpretation of the prophecy, Snape brought 
him, in relation to the debt he owed James according to DD the reason 
for his return? That doesn't sound like he is single-minded. Yes, he 
trusts his own perceptions more then that of others and it makes him 
so very wrong on more then one occasion and till HBP these errors in 
judgments had no critical consequences but unfortunately for Snape 
his last willingness to trust his own perception caused him to be 
tight up in a neat little bow of his own spider's web.  

Sure he is strong minded but not because of high moral standards but 
only if to serve himself. Snape was still in service with LV when he 
took the prophecy to him and LV was already killing people so if 
Snape strong sense of morality could no longer keep him in LV's 
service then why did he take the prophecy to LV in the first place, 
he would know that LV would be going to kill people that were a 
threat to his reign and why he never let himself be defied by his 
followers and why no one lives long enough to tell the tale (well no 
one but Snape of course so yes Snape is strong minded to keep himself 
alive) and why didn't Snape go to DD before LV interpreted the 
prophecy in a for Snape negative way? Well my personal answer because 
he didn't care when it did not effect him personally. 

Pippin: 
> Unfortunately the same characteristics would also make it 
> difficult for anyone to make him understand that he's misjudging 
> Harry very badly. Harry shares these qualities, and in his case it's
> unquestionable that they've led him to heroic actions, but
> it's also possible that they've led him to ignore what he's
> been told by others and misjudge Snape as badly as Snape 
> has misjudged him. 

Dana: 
Harry does not shares these qualities because Harry judges Snape by 
Snape's treatment of Harry and his insults about Harry's father, a 
man he never got to know because of an action this person took when 
he was still serving LV. No, one is telling Harry that he should like 
Snape because he is such a nice man and just misunderstood. No, he 
doesn't buy everybody believing Snape because DD trusts him and Snape 
actions not being analogue to this claim. The problem is that nobody 
is buying it if it wasn't for DD so Snape actions raises a lot of 
questions with various people and we see the same thing on the other 
side of the fence where LV is vouching for him, don't we? 

I do not see any heroic actions on Snape's part, I only see 
calculated actions that never put him at any risk. Many perceive his 
return to LV as putting himself in danger but I no longer do because 
him not returning would be the higher risk by far and I do not 
believe Snape trusts DD's power to keep him safe enough that he would 
risk defying LV for it. 

We see that he never risks this after LV's down fall by helping to 
round up DE's for the MoM either. I'm still not convinced that him 
sending the Order (in OotP) put himself at risk and that not doing 
anything was the bigger risk to his cover on the Order's side and why 
he took the gamble of sending them but not as a heroic deed on 
Snape's part to safe anybodies live. 

It is my opinion of course but I do not see Snape jumping around on 
the front line to safe his fellow Order members and I do not buy 
the "he could do nothing because he would risk his cover crap". We 
see Remus not caring about his cover when he is dealing with 
Greyback. And besides he has no trouble blowing his cover to kill DD 
in HBP. Many people want to believe this was a heroic deed on Snape's 
part, killing a wandless and defenseless man but I am not buying it. 

Saving Katie was not a heroic deed that put himself on the front line 
risking his life. I do not hear any praises for Harry's timely 
actions to safe Ron, no that is contributed to Snape too because 
Harry got the information out of the HBP book but if that is so then 
we should contribute Harry almost killing Draco to Snape as well 
because he got that information out of the same book too. 

And no the vow did not put Snape in any risk either because Snape did 
not take the vow as a heroic deed to save Draco. He gambled LV would 
ask him to finish Draco's job in case he failed anyway so he thought 
he could play the knight in shining armor with Narcissa and he would 
not go against LV's whishes by taking the vow because doing it on LV 
request and at the same time for Narcissa's would not make any 
difference to Snape, the outcome would be the same and LV would never 
know. The only problem is Snape trusting his own perceptions of 
things made him gamble wrong because LV never asked him to do it.  

Snape is not LV's man but Snape's man through and through and he at 
first just wanted to keep his lines open with DD just in case but 
when Snape thought he could not longer maintain this, at least not at 
his own expense he was very willing to sacrifice DD. And I believe he 
sacrificed other order information to LV as well to keep LV happy 
enough because LV was posing the bigger threat to Snape's life then 
DD would ever do. JMHO


Pippin: 
> The question of why Snape treats Harry as if he must be a carbon
> copy of James has, IMO, the same answer as the question of why 
> Harry treats Snape as if he must be a villain who hates him for no 
> reason and who is bent on treachery and murder.

Dana:
I disagree because Harry would never have hated Snape the way he does 
if Snape would never have treated Harry the way he did. So to me it 
is not the same answer because besides seeing Sirius loathing for 
Snape, Harry never experienced James hatred for Snape, so if Snape 
would have brought him flowers from the first day he came to school, 
told him what a wonderful man his father was and how proud he must be 
to look so much like him, Harry would never have thought about Snape 
in any different way then his other teachers (well that is not true 
he would probably seriously question the flower thing but anyway) 

Harry saw Snape wanting to have Sirius soul sucked without wanting to 
listen, he heard Snape tell Fudge he hoped DD would not make any 
trouble and he saw with his own eyes how Snape goaded Sirius by 
calling him a coward something Snape himself has a tremendous problem 
with. He heard Snape threatening him over and over again and you 
still expect Harry to dislike Snape just because Snape disliked his 
father. I do not think so. It was Snape own actions and choices that 
made Harry look at Snape the way he does and he even felt pity for 
Snape after seeing his father handle Snape. 

Pippin: 
> That's *exactly* what I see going on between Harry and Snape.
> On that first day of class, Snape saw seven years of James in 
> everything that Harry did. In everything Snape did, Harry saw 
> ten years of  the kiddie-lit/cartoon villains whom Snape so 
> much resembles, down to the hooked nose and sarcastic
> manner.

Dana:
Harry did not have an opinion about Snape until Snape looked at him 
with great dislike at the Sorting feast at the beginning of the year 
and then Snape's treatment of Harry in the first lesson that made it 
sure that this man did not dislike him but actually hated him and to 
him there was indeed no good reason for it. 

Pippin:  
> IMO, it's a case of mistaken identity, one of so many in the books. 
> Harry has the misfortune to resemble James. Snape's subconscious 
> identifies Harry as James, who persecuted Snape for years. 
> Every time Harry does something that would have been hostile  
> if James had done it,  Snape's subconscious perceives a threat 
> and Snape reacts reflexively.

Dana:
It is not Snape's subconscious that perceives a threat, he 
consciously chooses to take his hatred for James out on his son, just 
like he takes it out on Sirius and Lupin. 

I am sorry but I'm not buying the poor victim Snape excuse and him 
not having control over his reflexes when it comes to Harry because 
Snape's goading Harry starts with his referral to Harry's status of 
being famous and not out of reaction to anything Harry did to him. He 
also already gave Harry a look of great dislike before Snape has one 
interaction with him.

We see in the pensieve scene that Snape, the poor victim, is not on 
his guard when he wonders the ground and that he still feels 
confident enough to call Lilly a mudblood in front of James and have 
a go at James. We hear he did not fear cursing James at every chance 
he got. So why would Harry cause Snape such uncontrolled anxiety that 
he can't help himself. We also see that his reactions are very 
calculated and not mere reflexes of his subconscious fight or flight 
response. We see him not fear confronting Sirius and Lupin in the 
Shrieking Shack and have a real kick out of threatening them with a 
Dementor's kiss. The only uncontrolled behavior we see Snape have is 
when he doesn't get his revenge played out the way he truly wanted it 
too.  

If Snape is such a poor victim and scared of being hurt then how do 
you explain him ending up at LV's side being an active DE? (Even if 
he was just a spy it is still actively participating in LV's little 
army). Snape is not driven by a subconscious anything he chooses to 
treat Harry the way he does because it is his one chance to payback 
James, because he could never win from James because James was better 
then him and when he finally got a chance to get the marauders, the 
guy even dares to safe his life which seriously influences Snape's 
adult life still.   

Pippin:  
> Meanwhile Harry's subconscious tells him Snape would like
> nothing better than to ruin Harry's life, although Dumbledore
> tells him that he's actually been working very hard to save it.

Dana:
Sorry but to me telling Harry that Snape was trying to safe Harry's 
life so he would be even with James is not telling Harry Snape was 
trying to save Harry's life out of the goodness of his heart. And to 
be honest DD's explanations of Snape's behavior in OotP are very weak 
in comparison to what Harry sees of Snape actions. 

And yes, I hope Snape pays his dues and the more people come with 
ridiculous excuses for adult Snape's behavior the more I whish JKR 
will not only proof Snape is bad to the core (because he will do 
anything that serves himself) but has him pay dearly for his 
mistreatment of other people. I sincerely hope she will make Harry 
right about Snape and that she then let Harry proof to Snape that he 
isn't anything like him because regardless of Harry's hatred for 
Snape he will never lower himself to the same level as Snape did. 
JMHO.

Pippin:
> Snape had no business to blame Harry for Neville's accident. But
> I suspect he figured Neville would get it right since Neville's 
parents
> were both Aurors and therefore skilled at potions. He probably
> wasn't paying attention for once, blamed himself for the accident
> and immediately thought of a reason to blame Harry instead. Now
> who does that sound like?

Dana:
That sound like Snape is blaming everybody else but himself like we 
see him do many times after this incident as well. Washing himself of 
responsibility like saying James died because he was so arrogant to 
believe in Black, instead of blaming himself for bringing the 
prophecy to LV in the first place. 

I am sorry if I get you wrong but to me it seems that you are giving 
Snape a free pass to treat Neville and Harry a certain way because 
Snape makes presumptions about these kids parents. Is that their 
fault or Snape's? 

JMHO

Dana