Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 168565

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dana" <ida3 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Montavilla47:
> > Dumbledore didn't say that Snape owed James a *life* debt.   <snip> 

> Dana:
> Let's see what Dumbledore has to say about it. 
> 
> PoA pg 311 UKed Paperback
> 
> Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who 
> is in your debt. *When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it 
> creates a certain bond between them* 
  [emphasis mine] 
> 
> This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry,
 
> 
> End quote canon. 
> 
<snip>
> And if it isn't the same as you imply then why is it enough for Snape 
> to want to try to settle the score? If it meant nothing and he did 
> not owe James anything then there is no score to settle. 
> 
> I think it is very clear that James saving Snape's life created that 
> special bond in the same way it created a bond between Peter and 
> Harry, just because JKR might have muddied the water by claiming 
> Ginny did not owe Harry a debt doesn't mean it is suddenly different 
> for Snape as well. But I believe she did not meant it that way 
> because I believe what she did mean was that in case of Ginny it 
> caries no real importance because Ginny would give her life for Harry 
> any day with or without owing Harry anything. Ginny does owe Harry a 
> debt in the strictest sense of what a debt is but she will never feel 
> inclined to do anything, she would not already do for Harry, just 
> because of it and why it will not play any part in what is to come. 
>

Montavilla47 again:
Thanks for that explanation on why Ginny doesn't owe Harry a life debt.
It's one of the most sensible I've heard.  

But the logic remains that if the only condition for a life debt is that one
wizard save the life of another, then Ginny should owe one to Harry.  The
girl is eleven years old.  How does the magic know that she's always 
going to want to give her life for Harry?

To be honest, I think the life debt only applies to Snape if he is acting 
under compulsion--against all his better interests and inclinations--when
he protects Harry.  As we're assuming that Peter eventually will.  Not that
the life debt has stopped Peter from torturing Harry or using violating his
body for the purposes of an unnatural and evil act.

But getting back to Snape and life debt.  I can see that the life debt would
be a viable if you believe Snape hates Harry and that hatred is his principle
motivation.  He would need a strong outside compulsion to keep that hate
from interfering with the natural impulse to protect a child from harm.  Or 
if you believe that Snape has *no* such impulse and needs some strong,
binding magic to do so.

Or if you assume that Snape has no natural sense of honor that would 
recoil at the thought of someone saving his life and being beholde 
because of that.  That is such a natural feeling that we don't need magic
to understand it.  On the other hand, it's not in Peter's nature (from
what we can tell in the glimpses we've seen of him) to worry about 
"owing" someone.  He would need the magic compulsion to help Harry.

I'm going to have to stop myself before I go off on a real tangent.  

***
Montavilla47:
> > Let's see.  He claimed to have aided in the deaths of two people: 
> > Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black.  He killed Dumbledore.
> 
Dana: 
> You are forgetting James and Lily here and it almost killed Harry.

Montavilla47:
You're right.  I did forget James and Lily.  Snape never claimed
to have aided in their deaths.  But he should probably get 1/2
point for each.  So, that's.... 

 Kills:  1 + (1/2*4)  = 3.
Saves: 1/2 + (1/2*6) + 1 + 1/4 + 1 = 5.75 (Not counting the possible
saves.  If you add those in, you another 3:  8.75)

 
Dana: 
I do not count OotP because in my opinion he is still as much at 
fault for this ordeal happening in the first place so that cancels 
out his action of saving those 6. 
<snip>

Montavilla:  I'm leaving your accounting below, and responding to it here:

1.  "Almost" kills don't count.  They aren't kills.
2.  "Doing nothing to prevent" Barty Crouch from getting his soul sucked 
out isn't aiding it.  Nor is soul-sucking dying (although it's worse).  We're
talking about deaths here.  Nothing else.
3.  Draco tells Myrtle that LV will kill his "family" if he doesn't kill Dumbledore.
That puts Narcissa at risk.  Draco also tells her that LV will kill him if he 
doesn't succeed.  That puts Draco at risk.  The reason I called his saves of 
Narcissa and Draco "possible" is because we don't know if LV killed anyway.
4. I only awarded Snape 1/4 credit for Ron's save, precisely because his 
involvement is so very indirect.  But Harry gives the HBP credit, so I didn't
want to overlook that.  As for his spell being used against Draco, I agree 
with the principle, but "almost" kills don't count.
5.  It's very generous of you to count his attempt to save James (I assume 
you mean by spying on LV before the Potters were killed?)  I wouldn't, 
because James got killed anyway, and because we don't know for sure
that it was Snape who brought the vital information to DD.


Dana's Counting Method:
So he is responsible for James, Lily, almost killing Harry, Sirius 
(twice let's not forget the soul sucking), Lupin (as he wanted to 
have him soul sucked too), Emmeline Vance, Dumbledore. And we could 
add Barty Crouch Jr to this list because he did nothing to prevent 
Fudge taking his Dementor into the castle while Snape knew how DD 
felt about it but for argument sake I will not count it but we do not 
hear Snape did any arguing with Fudge when he went to get him.  
 
I do not count Narcissa's life because it was never at risk and he 
might have put her more at risk with taking the vow and LV finding 
out she went against his whishes just as Draco's lifesaving can't be 
counted because Draco is still at LV mercy and was never at risk from 
dying by DD's hand. 

He saves DD, Katie and Draco, I do not count Ron because if you count 
Ron because Harry got the information from the book then you should 
add Draco with the responsible for almost dying to his list too 
because Harry got that information from the book too. I'll will be 
accounting his attempt to safe James.  
> 
 Responsible, claims or kills, trying to kill = 1 + 1 + ½ + ½ + 1/2 + 
1 + 1 + 1= 6 1/2 (counting Sirius one and half times because he did 
actively try to get it done and will count Lupin as ½, just because 
he did not get his way doesn't cancel out his attempt)
> 
Saves or tries: 1 + 1 + ½ + ½ + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6 (counting James and 
Lily and trying to safe Harry but counting it half because his 
survival had nothing to do with Snape and the same goes for his 
attempt in PS) 


Montavilla47:
I hold with my amended count.   Snape is 2.75-3.75 ahead saves to kills.
As for putting the responsibility of the MoM fiasco on him, I'm sorry, 
but I can't go along with that at all.

I think we're at an impasse as far as the scoring goes. :)

****
> Montavilla47:
> > The book is so clear about this.  Quirrell is seated *behind* 
> Snape.  Snape
> > can't know who is jinxing that broom.  There are several hundred 
> people in
> > the stands and he can't know who the culprit is.  Even Hermione, 
> who looks 
> > in the direction that Snape and Quirrell are, facing them, doesn't 
> notice 
> > that it's Quirrell and not Snape.  
> 
> Dana:
> No, that is not correct because he was already on to Quirrell as it 
> was after Halloween and thus after Harry messes with Quirrell's 
> decoy. So why wouldn't Snape suspect this was Quirrell's doing too? 
> Hermione wasn't on to Quirrell so she only goes by what she sees. 

Montavilla47:
Snape may have been onto Quirrell wanting to get the stone.  That 
doesn't mean that Quirrell is necessarily the one person in that
stadium trying to kill Harry.  As someone pointed out, there might
be parents watching the game.  Former DE parents.  There might
be seventh-year students with the skills to jinx a broom.  

Snape's story to LV was that he suspected Quirrell of wanting that
stone for himself--not that he thought Quirrell was acting as LV's 
agent.