Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168543

> Montavilla47:
> Dumbledore didn't say that Snape owed James a *life* debt.  He says 
> that he *believes* that Snape hated James because James did the 
> unforgiveable thing of saving Snape's life and that he hoped that 
> saving Harry's life might even the score.
> 
> The way that Dumbledore states this puts it very much in Snape's 
> mind and might well be different than the "magic" that was invoked 
> by Harry sparing Pettigrew's life.
 
> This is why many people discount the "life debt" notion and not 
> the "trust" notion.   Not because one is convenient and one is 
> not.  

Dana:
Let's see what Dumbledore has to say about it. 

PoA pg 311 UKed Paperback

Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who 
is in your debt. *When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it 
creates a certain bond between them* 
  [emphasis mine] 

This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry,
 

End quote canon. 

James saved Snape's life so I trust that Snape was in James debt in 
the same way as Pettigrew is with Harry. It is not just because Harry 
spared Pettigrew's life in an act of mercy, it is saving Pettigrew 
from dying by actively preventing him being killed. 

And if it isn't the same as you imply then why is it enough for Snape 
to want to try to settle the score? If it meant nothing and he did 
not owe James anything then there is no score to settle. 

I think it is very clear that James saving Snape's life created that 
special bond in the same way it created a bond between Peter and 
Harry, just because JKR might have muddied the water by claiming 
Ginny did not owe Harry a debt doesn't mean it is suddenly different 
for Snape as well. But I believe she did not meant it that way 
because I believe what she did mean was that in case of Ginny it 
caries no real importance because Ginny would give her life for Harry 
any day with or without owing Harry anything. Ginny does owe Harry a 
debt in the strictest sense of what a debt is but she will never feel 
inclined to do anything, she would not already do for Harry, just 
because of it and why it will not play any part in what is to come. 


Montavilla47:
> Let's see.  He claimed to have aided in the deaths of two people: 
> Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black.  He killed Dumbledore.

Dana: 
You are forgetting James and Lily here and it almost killed Harry.


Montavilla47:
> He aided in saving Harry's life in PS/SS.  He aided in saving Harry,
> Hermione, Ron, Luna, Ginny, and Neville's lives in OotP.  In HBP, 
> he saved Dumbledore's life.  He "prevented the spread" of Katie's 
> curse, which probably saved her life.  His information helped Harry 
> save Ron's life.  He saved Draco's life when Harry cut him up in 
> the bathroom.He may have saved Draco and Narcissa's life by 
> completing Draco's mission.
> 
> Kills:  1 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2.
> Saves: 1/2 + (1/2*6) + 1 + 1/4 + 1 = 5.75 (Not counting the possible
> saves.  If you add those in, you another 3:  8.75)

I do not count OotP because in my opinion he is still as much at 
fault for this ordeal happening in the first place so that cancels 
out his action of saving those 6. I would have been happy to count it 
if he had done something to prevent Harry facing the DE's if Snape 
had risked his cover by informing the Order of LV's plan but he did 
not and I still believe Snape was very aware when Harry went of to 
the DoM when it was mentioned that Snape knew Harry was in the Forest 
with Umbridge which in my opinion he could not have known if he did 
not see them go in himself) 

So he is responsible for James, Lily, almost killing Harry, Sirius 
(twice let's not forget the soul sucking), Lupin (as he wanted to 
have him soul sucked too), Emmeline Vance, Dumbledore. And we could 
add Barty Crouch Jr to this list because he did nothing to prevent 
Fudge taking his Dementor into the castle while Snape knew how DD 
felt about it but for argument sake I will not count it but we do not 
hear Snape did any arguing with Fudge when he went to get him.  

I do not count Narcissa's life because it was never at risk and he 
might have put her more at risk with taking the vow and LV finding 
out she went against his whishes just as Draco's lifesaving can't be 
counted because Draco is still at LV mercy and was never at risk from 
dying by DD's hand. 

He saves DD, Katie and Draco, I do not count Ron because if you count 
Ron because Harry got the information from the book then you should 
add Draco with the responsible for almost dying to his list too 
because Harry got that information from the book too. I'll will be 
accounting his attempt to safe James.  

Responsible, claims or kills, trying to kill = 1 + 1 + ½ + ½ + 1/2 + 
1 + 1 + 1= 6 1/2 (counting Sirius one and half times because he did 
actively try to get it done and will count Lupin as ½, just because 
he did not get his way doesn't cancel out his attempt)

Saves or tries: 1 + 1 + ½ + ½ + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6 (counting James and 
Lily and trying to safe Harry but counting it half because his 
survival had nothing to do with Snape and the same goes for his 
attempt in PS) 

Mhhh still doesn't look like Snape is overly heroic to me, he is 
still pretty much responsible for as much deaths or almost deaths as 
he is in saving people. And if you count that he could have prevented 
the whole ordeal in OotP then he did not only put the lives of 6 
teenagers at risk by withholding information but also risked the 
lives of Order members unnecessary and the same goes for HBP. So the 
possible safe's you are contributing to Snape are still as many as he 
possible put at risk with his actions. He could have been the heroic 
figure if he indeed put his life on the line by exposing his cover to 
safe or prevent putting people at risk but he doesn't. He never puts 
his own life at risk once and to be honest I believe he notified the 
Order but also notified LV that he did it for LV to show up at the 
DoM and covering his own butt. Tell me how else did LV know the DoM 
ordeal went sour for him to go in himself? Mhhh interesting thought 
isn't it.  

Montavilla47:
> The book is so clear about this.  Quirrell is seated *behind* 
Snape.  Snape
> can't know who is jinxing that broom.  There are several hundred 
people in
> the stands and he can't know who the culprit is.  Even Hermione, 
who looks 
> in the direction that Snape and Quirrell are, facing them, doesn't 
notice 
> that it's Quirrell and not Snape.  

Dana:
No, that is not correct because he was already on to Quirrell as it 
was after Halloween and thus after Harry messes with Quirrell's 
decoy. So why wouldn't Snape suspect this was Quirrell's doing too? 
Hermione wasn't on to Quirrell so she only goes by what she sees. 

Montavilla47: 
> Snape has no time to look around that stadium.  He *has* to keep 
his eyes
> on the broom so that he can counterjinx it.

Dana:
Sure but the problem is that if Hermione had not intervened you would 
never know if Snape would have been able to safe Harry this way 
because it was not helping Harry get both feet on the ground. So 
essentially his muttering counter-curses might just have delayed the 
inevitable of Harry falling of his broom. The twins were trying to 
safe Harry too by getting Harry away from his broom but you do not 
hear anyone giving them credit for it and neither is Hermione given 
any credit for saving Harry by bumping into Quirrell breaking his eye 
contact. That is my problem when other people do far more heroic 
things then Snape does then it is eerie silent like for instance 
Sirius saving the kids by taking care of werewolf Lupin but when 
Snape does something it is elevated to him being the hero of the 
books and this while many of his actions put the lives of people in 
danger too. For instance him delaying Harry might very well have 
caused Barty Crough SR his life, him not telling DD about Quirrell 
put Harry's life in danger when Quirrell lured DD away from the 
castle and the list goes on and on. 

I'm not saying Snape did not try but his attempt was far from 
effective and it did not prevent Harry almost falling off or the 
broom getting higher and higher. Would Harry have fallen off sooner 
if Snape did not mutter his counter curses, well he might indeed but 
many kids fall of their brooms in Quidditch and Harry almost fell of 
seconds before so maybe Harry would have been safer falling off 
sooner when the broom was still within the stadium borders, who 
knows. 

JMHO

Dana