On the perfection of moral virtues.

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 169022

Dana:
It wasn't even enough for Snape to tell DD about Quirrell after he 
made an attempt on Harry's life and you claim that Snape's counter 
curses would have actually saved Harry but Harry's broom got higher 
and higher even with his muttering them. So if Harry hadn't held on 
by his own strength then he would have fallen a longer distance to 
the ground would that have saved him? It is always interesting to see 
that other people's attempt to save someone is just plain luck and 
nothing they actively did but Snape actions were deliberate even if 
he indeed deliberately put everyone in that danger in the first place 
by withholding information. 

Montavilla47:
Snape thinking that Quirrell wanted the stone doesn't mean 
necessarily that he thought Quirrell was trying to kill Harry.  The 
two things might be related, or they might not be.  The simplest
reading of the text is that Snape didn't know who was trying to 
kill Harry in the stadium.  It's the interpretation that most easily
fits with Snape's request to referee the next match--as that 
would give him the best vantage point to identify the mysterious
killer.

Also, we don't know that Snape *didn't* share his suspicions 
about Quirrell stealing the stone with Dumbledore.  There's no
reason to suppose that he didn't.  We know that Dumbledore
likes to give people the benefit of the doubt.  Without proof
from Snape, DD was unlikely to remove Quirrell from his job 
or otherwise take action against his D.A.D.A. teacher.  As DD
explained later on, the Mirror was a pretty good defense against
someone who wanted that stone for nefarious reasons.

As far as luck goes, I'd say the whole broomstick situation was 
pretty lucky.  It was lucky that Snape saw what was going on
and took action.  It was lucky that Hermione accidently knocked
down Quirrell.  It was lucky that Harry managed to stay on the 
broom long enough.  

What I don't understand is the need to cheapen Snape's 
contribution to the whole saving thing.  Quirrell tried to kill 
Harry.  He didn't succeed.  There were at least three things
that contributed to that lack of success.  One of them (as 
knowledged by Quirrell) was Snape's countercurses.

However, I doubt Snape thought he was risking anything by
counterjinxing the broom.  So, I would agree that it wasn't
at great personal risk.  He was more at risk for threatening
Quirrell in the woods.

Dana:
Yes, indeed isn't it interesting that Snape had his story for LV 
ready in just two hours or actually less because it took sometime for 
Harry to return, deal with Barty and then DD asking him, to me this 
is actually an indication that he started to think about it when he 
felt LV summoning his DEs but before DD even asked him to return. 
<snip>
So the only thing that remains questionable, did he really go back to 
LV because DD asked him too or did he go to save his own life. 
According to Snape it was both because going on DD's order was part 
of his excuse for not showing up earlier but I'm sure he would have 
wiggled his way out of that one too. 

Montavilla47:
I agree that Snape had his story ready long before that general 
DE summing in GoF.  He as much as tells Karkaroff that he's made
his decision to stay at Christmas time.  Once the Dark Mark started
showing up, he knew he'd have three choices:  

1. He could face Voldemort and either lie (or, if he's LVM, not).
2. He could run away, as Karkaroff did.
3. He could stay and hope that Dumbledore would protect him (as
Dumbledore was protecting Trelawney).

The only way that 3 would not be an option is if Dumbledore 
refused to protect him unless he continued to spy.  I don't think 
that Dumbledore would have done that.  He *asks* Snape to go
back to Voldemort.  And he's shown that he'll protect even 
people like Draco and Narcissa for no other reason than that they
require protection.

Even if Snape is LVM, he still was risking whether or not LV would
allow him to tell his story before killing him.  When we see the
way that LV treated those who returned immediately, it's far from
sure that Snape would survive that first meeting.  LV's own words
about "the one who left" indicate that he would not be 
interested in excuses.

That Snape risked returning at all (and that DD let him) indicate to
me that they both had tremendous trust in Snape's ability as an
Occlumens.  But the risk is apparent from DD's manner as he asks
Snape to go.

Dana: 
<snip about Snape going to the Shrieking Shack>
He also could have known that both Lupin and Sirius were no treat 
after him listening in on the conversation for more then 10 minutes. 
He could also know from Lupin's absence that the story Sirius, Harry 
and Hermione were telling was true because he knew Lupin was absent 
because he transformed. And no one having any werewolf injuries would 
be proof that someone did get Lupin away from them all but he went 
and tried to hurry the process of getting Sirius's soul sucked anyway 
and he went against DD as well. He even tells Fudge he hopes DD is 
not going to be a problem. 

Montavilla47:
I don't think even the most ardent Snape admirer would call that
scene in the hospital wing Snape's shining hour.  He's quite 
incredibly petty and vengeful.  

But, like the broomstick incident in PS/SS, there are many factors 
contributing to the situation.  One, obviously, is that having nearly
been killed by Black (using Lupin) in the past, Snape is less likely
to believe them in the present.  Another may have been his own
frustration that DD hasn't believed his worries about Lupin all 
year.  Another may have been his own curiosity (the same curiosity
that sent him own the tunnel twenty years earlier) when Lupin is 
explaining the story to the kids.

Was he acting with his best judgment?  Of course not.  Was he 
sincerely trying to protect the school from someone he thought
was a murderer?  I believe he was.  If that happened to coincide
with getting revenge on someone who tried to kill him, well, that
part was the gravy. :)

Dana:
<snip>... and we see that 
he never defected truly because he never sold out his fellow DEs by 
providing the MoM with their names, or at least he never provided 
evidence of it openly that could harm him later. The great personal 
risk, is what DD states Snape did but at this moment the only info 
Snape seemed to have provided is that LV was going to target the 
Potters. He never got the name of the spy that was working for LV for 
more then a year that provided important information about the 
Potters movements. 

Montavilla47:
I think it's interesting that it's held against Snape that he didn't
"name names" because none of the characters in the books 
(notably Fudge or DD, or even Moody) hold that against him.  
On the contrary, there seems to be a lot of contempt held for 
Karkaroff who did name names.

We can't really know what information Snape passed along to
DD, although you're right that he never seemed to learn who
the spy in the Order was.  But the personal risk part is so 
obvious that I don't see how we need that part shown or 
explained.  The danger of being discovered and killed is as
obvious a part of spying as getting burned is a part of fire-
fighting.

Dana again:
To be honest LV summoning his DEs in GoF to witness his return and 
him mentioning all their names doesn't give the impression that no 
one knew, who was who in the first war. I do not know were the idea 
came from that LV kept his DEs in the dark about their fellow DEs. 
I might have missed it in the books but with Sirius specifically 
mentioning that he heard things about Wormtail in Azkaban makes me 
think Snape knew this too but he never told DD this information 
because it could have only come from him and he would have risked his 
cover if he had done so. 

Montavilla47:
If everyone knew everyone in the DE's, then it wouldn't have been
any special risk for Snape to tell DD, as any DE would have known.
In GoF, Karkaroffs says that LV didn't want his DEs to know who the
others were--since they were less likely to be betrayed.

That's a standard way of setting up a secret organization--so that 
your members are limited in their knowledge of other members. 

I agree that this is contradicted by the reunion in the Graveyard.  It's
hard to reconcile the conflicting bits of information.  

Dana:
If Snape risked his life by sending the Order to the MoM then why 
isn't he dead? No one could have notified the Order except Snape and 
DD showing up after the Order would make LV know it wasn't DD himself 
that notified them. And no other teacher could have notified the 
Order and then be able to tell them were Harry had gone to because 
even the Order did not know LV's plan to lure Harry there. 

Montavilla47:
Your reasoning is good if Voldemort were sure that there was no 
other way for the Order to know that Harry was at the Ministry besides
a teacher informing them.  But there might have been other ways
to know that.

For example, what if Harry sent a note to the Order, telling them that
he was going?  What if DD has a way to track Harry's movements?  
What if Harry had used one of those Patronus things to contact the 
Order once he arrived at the Ministry?  What if Harry left a note
with Flitwick (or Madam Hooch, Madam Pomfrey, Sinestra, Vector, or
Sprout) and one of them contacted the Order?  

What if Sibyl Trelawney spoke a prophecy that "tonight, the Chosen
One will run off to the Ministry of Magic"?

What if he contacted the Weasleys and they contacted the Order?  How
about this... DD has an invisible spy guarding the DoM and that person
noticed six teenagers running by yellling out, "Sirius!  Sirius!  We're
here!"

Just a few possible suggestions,

Montavilla47