On the perfection of moral virtues--Snape, the shack, and unilateral authority

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 169060

Mike:

> Snape saw Lupin and only Lupin on the Map. It presupposes a lot to 
> think that Snape knew Sirius was already in the Shack. In fact I 
> believe his exact words were: "Not even I dreamed you would have 
> the nerve to use this old place as your hideout -" (PoA p.359, US) 
> Since canon tells us that Snape didn't think Padfoot was in there, 
> why should I believe that Snape thought he was going into a 
> confrontation with anyone other than Lupin?

Leslie:

Because of the additional information that is contained in the first 
part of that quote.  The entire quote is as follows:

"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your 
old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not 
even I dreamed you would have the nerve to use this old place as your 
hideout "

So when Snape says that he's referring to the conversations with 
Dumbledore, which happened periodically throughout the year.  As soon 
as he sees Lupin on the map runing towards the willow, he suspects 
Black is there.  And he's right.  He's telling Lupin he suspected 
that he was helping Black to hide out, but he didn't know exacty 
how.  When he saw Lupin on the map, he suspected how.  
 
> Mike:

> Why would Snape think he's going into a fight? 

Snape thinks he's going into a fight because he believes Lupin is 
there with Black.  Everyone in the wizarding world believes Black is 
a dangerous criminal.  He's Osama Bin Laden as far as everyone is 
concerned. Lupin was one of Black's childhood friends. Snape is also 
Black's sworn enemy. Snape is going to try to apprehend them both.  
Snape has no reason to believe he *won't* be going into a fight.    

> > Leslie41:
> > From his perspective, Snape's best hope is to get there 
> > immediately before the moon comes up and subdue the prisoners--
> > or rather turn them over to the Dementors.  And he has plenty of 
> > time to do that (somehow I don't think that even a werewolf 
> > would be a match for them).
> 
> Mike:
> I've addressed the plural "prisoners". As to dealing only with 
> Lupin (the only one Snape is following), by what authority does 
> Snape get to decide that Lupin is an outlaw? They are both teachers 
> at the same school, neither has authority over the other. Where 
> does Snape get off deciding that Lupin is breaking some law then 
> tying and gagging him? This has always got my goat, that Snape has 
> bestowed upon himself the moral authority to silence Lupin, because 
> he says so.

Leslie:

Snape has every reason to believe that Lupin is in cahoots with 
Black, as Lupin immediately begins defending him the second Snape 
arrives.  Certainly Lupin is not there to subdue Black, that's 
obvious.  He binds and gags Lupin not only to shut him up, but to 
incapacitate him.  

And though Snape has "decided" that Lupin is an outlaw, you will 
notice that he doesn't act the vigilante.  He could certainly kill 
Black and would be thought a hero for it.  He would have gotten that 
order of Merlin.  But Snape comes to capture, not to kill.  
The "authority" that he presumes is to merely do what anyone else 
would in that situation, other than Dumbledore, perhaps.  
 
Mike:
> And if Snape has plenty of time to subdue Lupin before he 
> transforms, why doesn't he have plenty of time to bring him his 
> potion? Once again, he has no knowledge of anyone else. Whatever 
> else he may think is going on, why not at least bring the potion?

Leslie:
I don't understand why you keep putting the blame on Snape for Lupin 
not taking the potion.  Lupin's the one who forgot it. Lupin himself 
takes responsibility for that and doesn't blame Snape for it.  Why 
are you?  But aside from that...Snape did not bring the potion 
because he doubtless thought that Lupin would be subdued when he 
transformed.  The potion makes Lupin's transformations easier and 
eliminates the insanity that goes along with being a werewolf.  
Snape's not interested in making Lupin's life any easier at that 
point.      
 
Mike:
> And if his best option is to subdue Lupin before he transforms, why 
> does he hide under the cloak and listen to Lupin rehash their 
> schoolboy days for what seems like forever (to me)?

Leslie:
Because, of course, Snape does not act until his suspicions have been 
completely confirmed.  He does not take a "shoot first, ask questions 
later" approach, though he certainly could have. He could have easily 
killed Black the very second he realized that Black was there, and 
been called a hero for it.  But he doesn't.  He waits and assimilates 
information.  

If we are to assume that Snape was there from the moment that the 
door seemed to open by itself, what Snape hears is Lupin's story of 
the Whomping Willow, then Lupin's admission that he and his animagi 
friends left the Shrieking Shack and roamed about the grounds and 
Hogsmeade during Lupin's transformations, an extremely foolhardy 
thing to do and one that not only betrayed Dumbledore's trust but put 
a lot of people at risk.  He then hears Lupin admit that he knew 
Black was an animagus, but he didn't tell Dumbledore.  "Snape's been 
right about me all along," Lupin says.  

Snape then hears Lupin refer to the prank. Sirius says "It served him 
right..."  Even after all these years he's still not sorry he played 
a trick on Snape that nearly got him killed.

> Mike:
> I see. Lupin is a werewolf, therefore it's OK to assume he is a 
> killer. Disregarding that he has killed noone as far as we know. 

Leslie:
Um, again, by Lupin's own admission he had many "near misses" that 
still haunt him.  And the very purpose of werewolves is to kill 
people or maim them.  Of course it's okay to assume he's a killer, or 
at least a potential killer.  Lupin himself would do no less.  The 
Shrieking Shack only protects Hogwarts if Lupin stays inside it.  He 
doesn't.  The Wolfsbane only protects Hogwarts if Lupin takes it.  He 
forgets.  Lupin doesn't blame Snape for either of those facts.  He 
blames himself.  And he's right.  
  
Mike:
> Disregarding that he has taught at Hogwarts for an entire year, and 
> taken his wolfsbane during the entire time. Disregarding that 
> Dumbledore was the one that hired him, and that the Ministry, 
> however reluctantly, has allowed the hire. 

Leslie:
Remember that Snape has just heard Lupin admit that as a teenager he 
went roaming about the grounds in his werewolf form, and that he 
nearly killed people many times.

Mike:
> No, Snape knows better than everyone and he's going to prove it. 
> After all, he's the "Potions Master" at Hogwarts and that gives him 
> special dispensation to disregard everyone elses authority and take 
> matters into his own hands. I ask again, where does Snape get the 
> authority to act unilaterally?

Leslie:
Where is this "authority" and "unilateral" action that you speak of?  
Snape merely attempts to subdue a criminal.  He does not "take 
matters into his own hands".  If he had done that he would have 
killed both Black and Lupin. It's Lupin and Black that wish to act on 
their own "unilateral authority" by killing Pettigrew.  It's only 
Harry who stops them.  

In fact, if we look at Snape and Lupin/Black here, they are in nearly 
identical situations.  Both Snape and Lupin/Black are confronted with 
old enemies that betrayed them, enemies that are guilty of murder (or 
at least Snape has the right to believe that).  It's Lupin and Black 
that gleefully insist on killing Pettigrew themselves.  Snape does no 
such thing, and holds back from that even when Black tries to attack 
him.  

So who's taking matters into their own hands?  Who's acting 
on "unilateral authority"?  Not Snape.  

> Mike:
> Ah, the real crux of the matter. Snape hates the Marauders, 
> therefore that gives him the authority to decide what's going on 
> and he doesn't have to listen to anyone. The Marauders picked on 
> him when they were in school and that makes them criminals not 
> worth listening to. He gets to bind and gag Lupin because anything 
> he might say is a lie, not worth hearing.

Leslie:
The Marauders picking on him in school doesn't make them criminals.  
The fact that Sirius is a known criminal does, and Lupin has just 
admitted that he withheld information about Black's status as an 
animagus.  From Snape's perspective, Black killed a bunch of people.  
And Lupin seems to be aiding and abetting him. Snape shows far more 
restraint than an auror might have, I would suggest.  

> Mike:
> Actually, I'm a Snape critic, and I think I was looking at Snape's 
> behavior based on what *Snape knew*, not what I knew. Snape didn't 
> know Sirius nor the kids were in the Shack. 

Leslie:
Not the kids, but he was pretty sure Sirius was there.

Mike:
> Snape had nothing other 
> than his own prejudices to inform him that Lupin was up to no good 
> that evening. 

Leslie:
Snape takes the time to listen to Lupin admit he wandered about the 
grounds as a werewolf, and didn't tell Dumbledore that Black was an 
animagus.

Mike:
> Snape had no reason to believe he was going into a 
> fight other than his own expectations that Lupin was actively 
> helping Sirius. 

Leslie:
Lupin admits he was "helping" Sirius by not revealing his animagus 
status.  Lupin says "Snape was right about me."

Mike:
> And he was basing that on his schoolboy grudge, not on 
> anything approaching legal or moral proof. 

Leslie:
See above.

Mike:
> And upon reaching the Shack, Snape actively disregards what's going 
> on in front of him, and acts upon his schoolboy grudge. 

Leslie:
Snape acts on what he hears from Black and Lupin during their 
conversation.  And the fact that Black is a known criminal.  What 
Snape attempts to do is subdue them and give them over to the 
authorities.  

Mike:
> Remember, all of the kids have their wands out, Lupin's is stored 
> away, and Sirius has no wand. Yet the kids are listening to the 
> story, questioning it, 
> but clearly not "Confunded". Does Snape take a logical approach or 
> does he completely disregard what the kids have concluded deserves 
> hearing out? I say the latter.

Leslie:
The "logical approach" when discovering a murderer is to run away and 
inform the authorities.  If you're especially brave and skilled, you 
subdue them and turn them over to the authorities.  Which is exactly 
what Snape tried to do.     

Again, I think your opinion is skewed by what *you* know about Black 
and Lupin, not what anyone else (including Snape) could be presumed 
to know.