Lupin in the Shrieking Shack was Re: On the perfection of moral virtues.

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 169096

> > Pippin:
> > I'll turn your question around. By what authority did Lupin decide
> > that Sirius was *not* an outlaw? 
> 
> Mike:
> Ahh, but I'm not gonna let ya <veg>. This is between Lupin and Snape. 
> They each have their differing position on Sirius. They are both 
> teachers at the same school, have the same authority in their present 
> positions. But only one of them has a Dark Mark, however faded, on 
> his forearm. 

Pippin:
Dark Mark or not, Snape had been pardoned by Dumbledore, Head
of the Wizengamot, and cleared  by the Ministry of Magic. He had as 
much moral authority as any other  wizard on Dumbledore's side.

He was confronting a person whom Dumbledore himself believed to
be a murderer  convicted of  killing an unprecedented
thirteen people in a terrorist attack. All Snape proposed to do
was turn Sirius and Lupin over to the proper authorities. If
Snape had no authority to serve as judge (and I agree he did
not) then he had no authority to rule on Sirius's guilt or innocence,
yet that's what Lupin tried to get him to do. It's Lupin who
tries to subvert justice, who doesn't want Sirius taken in
even before Snape says anything about dementors. 

> 
> > Pippin: <snip>
> > Ron lay seriously injured. Given that Sirius and Lupin are old 
> > friends, how could it not look fishy? 
> 
> Mike:
> And Snape did what for Ron? 

Pippin:
He put Ron on a stretcher and took him to the hospital wing.
 
Mike:
> If Snape opens his eyes, he should see that while Lupin is 
> storytelling, Harry and Hermione are questioning Lupin's story and 
> Sirius is sitting on the bed, **wandless** and staring at the rat. 

Pippin:
But Lupin's story has nothing to do with the matter in hand, which
is the betrayal of the Potters and the murder of thirteen other people.
Even Sirius can't see the point of going through it all. When Lupin
transforms, he will be a monster capable of killing them all, and
he shows no awareness or even any reaction to Snape's assertion
that he hasn't taken his potion. It's bizarre. And since
JKR says her story is character-driven, I can only assume that
she *chose* a bizarre way of having Lupin deliver this information.
She's telling us something about him, but what?

Mike:
> What is fishy about this scene is *why* this Conspirator!Lupin is 
> telling a story and *why* this criminal Black is sitting mostly 
> placidly on the bed and staring at the rat and not his supposed 
> victim, Harry. If Lupin and Black have finally cornered their 
> intended victim, what's all this other falderall?

Pippin:
Black is supposed to be out of his mind, why wouldn't he
be staring at a rat? As for Lupin, Snape admits to not being
sure what he's doing. But he's already confessed enough to
be taken in for questioning in connection with Black at least.


> > Pippin:
> > If Lupin meant well, wouldn't he have sent a patronus to 
> > Dumbledore for help, and wouldn't Dumbledore have arrived 
already?
> 
> Mike:
> You presume that Dumbledore had invented his messenger Patronus 
> already. You take it for granted that Lupin should have sent the 
> patronus(if it existed)?

Pippin:
We know he used it in GoF, but if it hadn't been invented yet then
presumably the Order had some other way of being in touch. Snape
would not use it casually because he was not yet openly an Order 
member and wouldn't want that revealed. It would have been
wise for Snape to have back up, but as usual in crime stories,
he didn't know he needed it until it was too late to send for it.

I never said that Snape knew what he would find in the shack.
All he knew from the Map was that Lupin was running down the
tunnel. That's not proof of anything. If Lupin preferred to wait
out his transformation in the shack instead of taking his potion,
presumably that would be his choice. 

The tree can be stilled from inside the tunnel only by somone 
small enough to exit and reach the knot without being whomped,  
so Werewolf!Lupin would be safe enough inside -- unless Sirius 
came by and freed him.

That might be  what Snape was afraid of and
why he set out, perhaps only intending to keep watch. But
then he found the cloak and that changed matters. He had
to find out whether Harry was safe. 

> > Pippin:
> > The fact that the kids still had their wands would mean nothing, 
> > since Lupin only had to say "Expelliarmus!" to take them away -- 
> > his own wand isn't even stowed in his robes, it's stuck in his 
> > belt. And Lupin is also capable of wandless magic, as Snape may 
> > know.
> 
> Mike:
> I'm at a loss on your point of Lupin's wandless magic. :-? I honestly 
> don't remember what you are referring to.

Pippin:
He conjured a handful of flames on the Hogwarts Express. He
then drew his wand to drive off the dementor. 

> Mike:
> I find this conjecture unconvincing. I believe most theorists have 
> presumed Lupin not drinking his potion in front of Snape in Ch 8 was 
> him acting passive-agressively towards Snape. At least that's the 
> analysis (not by me) I found most convincing for Snape's comment and 
> Lupin's behavior. Any speculation as to how long the potion remains 
> viable is just that.

Pippin:
Any speculation on why Snape didn't bring some out to the Shack
is also just that :) But the potion was smoking, which shows that
it  must be breaking down in some way.

Mike:
> **********
> The bottom line for me: Harry entered the Shack convinced Sirius 
> Black is the reason his parents are dead and therefore with murderous 
> intent in his heart. He has yet to be convinced of the contrary when 
> Snape makes his entry under the cloak. Yet Harry has enough common 
> sense to listen to Lupin's story, to at least hear him out.

Pippin:
It's only common sense because Harry has little idea as yet what DE's
are capable of. He doesn't understand how vulnerable he and his
friends really are (or would have been if Sirius had really been
a DE. ) Their wands might have been exactly as much use as 
Cedric Diggory's was. 

I agree that Snape was blinded, by revenge,  or possibly
by his horror that James might have taken his warning against
Black to heart and actually chosen Peter as the secret keeper 
because of Snape's advice. If he had agreed calmly to take 
them to the castle and Dumbledore,  and had resisted the
temptation to taunt them with dementors, things might have
gone differently. But I don't see him as doing more than
taunting, though Sirius and Lupin weren't to know that. 

His *job* is finding out what the DE's are up to.
He would know that Dumbledore would never
reward him for destroying a source of information by
allowing Sirius's soul or Lupin's to be sucked out. 


Pippin