On the perfection of moral virtues.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 169064

Mike wrote:
> Can I just interject here for a moment. Why do we think that Snape
"save Harry's life" by performing the countercurse?
<snip>
> 
> Dumbledore told Harry that James saved Snape's life, but he only
said that Snape was "protect"ing Harry all year. Not that Snape ever 
> *saved Harry's life*.
> 
> I just think Snape is getting credit for something that didn't rise
to the level of *life-saving*. Protecting, yes, that's what 
Dumbledore called it, but saving Harry's life - IMO that gives him 
too much credit.
> 
Carol responds:
I acknowledge the inconsistencies and confusion regarding what can and
can't kill a wizard (JKR's fault ;-) ), but *Quirrell* says he was
trying to kill Harry ("No, no, no, *I* tried to kill you"), so I think
we have to believe that that's what he was trying to do. He also says
that he'd have managed to knock Harry off his broom (and thereby
succeed in killing him) before Hermione bumped into him "*if Snape
hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you*" (SS Am. ed.
289). Not "protect." "Save."

Later, Hermione mentions that Snape saved Harry's life in their first
year--not a word about her own accidental bumping into Quirrell as
saving him. (I think it's in HBP, but I don't recall exactly where.
Anyone have the quote handy?)

Snape himself tells Bellatrix in "Spinner's End" that he couldn't kill
Harry or allow Harry to be killed in front of him, ostensibly because
DD wouldn't like it (understatement). Snape doesn't say so, but I
assume that's what he's referring to (HBP Am. ed. 31). He may also
have Barty Jr. in mind, but I don't think that either Voldie or
Bellatrix know that he rushed in with DD and McGonagall to rescue
Harry and catch the culprit on that occasion.

At any rate, I agree that Snape was protecting Harry (as he so often
does), but in this instance, he was also saving him since Quirrell
was, by his own confession, trying to kill Harry. And if that's the
case, Hermione (who didn't suspect Quirrell) would have been too late
to accidentally block his eye contact had it not been for Snape, whose
countercurse presumably kept the broom from rocketing sky high before
throwing Harry off (or enabled him to hold onto his broom). Hermione
didn't know whose eye contact to break and could have done much more
harm than good by setting fire to her fellow rescuer's robes.

Carol earlier:
> > He was also in grave danger when he returned to Voldemort with 
his prepared cover story (which is how I read "If you are ready, if
you are prepared") for his actions relating to Quirrell (and reasons
for not being in the graveyard).
> 
Mike:
> Yes, I agree. Inside our timeline - that is during actual book time
 and not previous to Nov 1, 1991 - this is definitely when Snape is in
true mortal danger, and in my opinion, the only time. <snip>

Carol responds:
So you're not denying that he spied for DD "at great personal risk"
before GH, just not counting it because it occurs before the books
begin? Hm. IMO, it should count as risking his life because the peril
of discovery was very real, but it's true that we only have DD's word
for it. If DD is right, however, then it's an early example of
Severus's courage. (Think how MWPP would have loved him if he hadn't
been placed in Slytherin and didn't have that reputation for an
interest in Dark magic.)

However, going back to book time, we don't know how much Snape knew,
but if *Hagrid* suspected that Voldemort wasn't dead and was likely to
come back at some point, it seems likely that Snape also suspected it,
especially if he was working closely with Dumbledore. And it therefore
seems likely that he knew or strongly suspected that Quirrell was
stealing the Stone for Voldemort ("where your loyalties lie," etc.).
If I'm right, Snape was deliberately placing himself in very real,
though not immediate, danger by thwarting him.

Also, though I have a high opinion of Snape's wizarding skills and
agree that Quirrell-as-Quirrell was probably a mediocre wizard,
Possessed!Quirrell seems to be another matter--that is, Voldemort can
apparently act through him (though unfortunately all we have is the
pov of an inexperienced eleven-year-old wizard who thinks that
Quirrell can cast a deadly curse without a wand). My point, though, is
that if Voldemort had succeeded in obtaining the sorceror's Stone and
using it to return to power, Snape would have been in real danger--the
same danger that he belatedly faced whn he faced Voldemort at the end
of GoF. It wasn't just his absence from the graveyard or his failure
to go after LV and resuce him that he had to explain. He had to come
up with an explanation for the whole business of thwarting Quirrell
and saving Harry--hence "If you are ready; if you are prepared."

Snape knows what DD "must ask [him] to do" (return to Voldemort), but
DD expects him to have prepared his own explanations (cover stories)
for his disloyalty to Voldemort. He has to pretend that he thought
Voldemort was dead or permanently disabled and that he thought it was
just "unworthy Quirrell" who was trying to steal the Stone. He also
has to come up with a reason for not killing Harry or allowing him to
be killed in his presence.

So, yes, Snape was not in real danger *until* he stood in LV's
presence and told those lies, but he was in danger *because* of those
previous actions. Make sense? Also, he's always in danger as a spy or
double agent of making a fatal slip that could blow his cover and cost
his life. (Note Sirius Black's jealousy that Snape is out risking his
life for the Order while Black has to stay home with Kreacher and his
mad mother's portrait for company.)
 
Carol:
> > He also placed himself in grave danger by facing a werewolf about
to transform and a man he thought had betrayed the Potters and
murdered thirteen people in PoA. The danger from the werewolf, at
least, was  very real. 
> 
> Mike:
> First off, if he's in such danger why doesn't he bring the Wolfsbane
potion with him? And please don't tell me he'll spill it. <snip>

Carol:
All right, I won't (though I still think it's a valid objection).
Maybe he'd rather capture the werewolf without his potion. More
dangerous and heroic that way, and it makes Lupin look more culpable.
As you say, at that point, Snape didn't know when he rushed after
Lupin that any students were in danger. By the time he found the
Invisibility Cloak, it was too late to go back. :-)

Mike:
> Also, remember he was only aware of Lupin heading for the Womping
Willow, he knew not of the trio, Black, nor Pettigrew already in the
Shack. Snape doesn't seem that concerned with the possibilities, and
he has the history to know what he's in for. <snip>

Carol responds:
He doesn't know about Pettigrew, true. If he had, he'd have been
forced to believe Lupin's story and events would have turned out quite
differently. As it is, he thinks that Black murdered Pettigrew along
with the Muggles twelve years earlier and has no idea that Pettigrew
is present in the shack in rat form. (Even when he hears that
suggestion, it seems as preposterous to him as it does later to
Fudge.) And, true, Snape doesn't know that Harry and his friends are
in the tunnel *until* he finds the Invisibility Cloak, at which point
he knows that Harry, at least, is in grave danger. 

But Sirius Black is another matter. Surely, Snape guessed why Lupin
had run out to the Shrieking Shack. Obviously, Lupin saw someone on
the Marauder's Map, someone who was hiding in the Shrieking Shack. And
who could that be except the wanted murderer, Sirius Black? So Snape
doesn't want to be encumbered with a goblet of potion, whether or not
it would spill as he clambers in the dark through the tunnel. He wants
to have free access to his wand.

So Snape, DADA expert though he is, deliberately charges out minus the
Wolfsbane Potion to catch not only the murderer but his werewolf
accomplice, who has, Snape has every reason to think, been helping
Black get into the castle. Obviously you don't agree, but I'd call
that reckless courage worthy of a Marauder.

Mike: 
> Finally, if there was actual mortal danger, who prevented Lupin from
killing anyone? That's right, Sirius Black in his animagus dog form. 
So either Snape felt there was no real mortal danger in the 
possibility of facing a werewolf, or he rather stupidly relied on 
someone else coming to his rescue. Someone that he didn't know was
there when he left the castle and someone he didn't know had the 
ability to transform into an animal large enough to thwart a 
werewolf. Which version of Snape do you like?

Carol:

I like courageous-but-vengeful Snape who wants to bring the murderer
and his werewolf accomplice to justice and prove to Dumbledore that he
was right along and is willing to place himself in peril that he
thinks he can handle, complicated by DDM!Snape rescuing that pesky,
rule-breaking Harry Potter yet again once he finds the Invisibility
Cloak. If Harry hadn't been there, he wouldn't have had the Cloak and
would have had no reason to listen at the door. He'd have gone
charging in to face Lupin about to transform and armed with a wand and
Sirius Black, whom he believes to be a murderer, armed with a
twelve-inch knife (and possibly a wand as well if Lupin supplied him
with one). He wanted a chance, I think, to go against the werewolf and
the murderer one against two and win. 

It *was* a risk, but he thought that he could take them both on, and
given his prowess in dueling with Harry in HBP, he may well have been
right. OTOH, if they had really been the people Snape thought they
were, he might well have been wrong, and he didn't know that eh
"murderer" was also an Animagus capable of transforming into a huge
Grimlike dog. Had the kids not been there, Black certainly wouldn't
have transformed into a dog to protect *Snape* once Lupin transformed
into a werewolf. He'd have transformed into a dog and *attacked*
Snape, who would have been holding him at wandpoint with the strings
to Lupin's bonds in his other hand. That's a danger that snape could
not have anticipated. (He wouldn't even have heard the Snimagus
portion of the story because they'd have had no reason to tell it to
each other.)

> > Carol, assuming DDM!Snape, of course
> 
> Mike, who still despises DDM!Snape, despite his belief in his 
DDMness. ;)

Ah, well. Love him or hate him, at least we agree as to where his
loyalties lie. I don't think that JKR can possibily answer all the
questions about him, which will leave scenes like this one open to a
variety of interpretations even after DH.

Carol, who wonders what Phineas Nigellus would think of a Slytherin
who repeatedly risks his own neck, tsk! tsk!