On the perfection of moral virtues.

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 169099


> Mike:
> Yes, you are right of course, Quirrell did say that he tried to 
kill 
> Harry. But I don't see how that changes my assertion. There remains 
> the four points I brought up previously. 

zgirnius:
Someone else answered the point about Dumbledore's quote 
about 'protecting' - it is in the context of Snape's activities all 
year. The others, I feel I did answer adequately. I have nothing to 
add.

> Mike:
And quite frankly, I still 
> find Quirrell's action a impotent attempt. 

zgirnius:
And I, quite frankly, don't care. Perhaps any of 100 other people 
might have saved Harry instead that day. This does not alter the fact 
that only two people did, and one of them was Severus Snape.

> Mike:
> I'll go along with that motivation for Snape. Which means to me 
that 
> Snape is stuck in 'all the Marauders are evil' mode.

zgirnius:
So what? 

> Mike:
> As Snape has no 
> proof for his assertion that Lupin is in cahoots with Sirius other 
> than they were friends at school together. 

zgirnius:
*Of course* he has no hard proof. If he had that, he would have taken 
it to the authorities, and that would have been that. He has, by the 
critical evening, amassed circumstantial evidence that is convincing 
to him:

1) Black has an accomplice inside the castle. Considering a person's 
known associates as more likely to be such an accomplice compared to 
complete strangers (such as the actual culprit, the cat of Hermione 
Granger) is reasonable. 
2) There is also the matter of the parchment that Snape finds on 
Harry after Harry's illicit trip to Hogsmeade. He suspects that it 
contains instructions about how to get into Hogsmeade without passing 
the Dementors, a reasonable guess given Harry has just done so. A 
guess, further, not in any way connected to any supposed irrational 
prejudice against the Marauders, since he makes the connection before 
the Marauders' nicknames enter the picture. He learns that the 
parchment in question was made by the Marauders, and Lupin lies to 
him about it. Where do you suppose Snape thinks Harry got the thing? 
*Directly from the manufacturers*, Snape supposes. Only one of whom 
has easy access to Harry - Lupin.
3) That it *is* a way to get into Hogsmeade is a shrewd guess that 
Snape confirms before he comes after Lupin in the climax of PoA - he 
sees it at work when he sees Lupin go into the tunnel.

Enough to make following Lupin seem worth the trouble when he does, 
to me.

> Mike:
> How do you figure? How did he get out all those times when they 
were 
> the Marauders? Lupin would just move faster on all fours as a 
> werewolf.

zgirnius:
Canon is that he was able to get out because Peter the convenient 
little rat stopped the tree. In his transformed state, he loses his 
human consciousness and does not know how to deactivate the tree 
himself. 

If he could always get out by himself, why didn't he? Not to mention 
it makes Dumbledore an idiot - this is the protection he put in place 
when he permitted Lupin to attend the school.

> Mike:
> But canon shows that Snape fully intended to "drag the werewolf" 
out 
> himself.

zgirnius:
Canon shows what he threatened. I am not convinced he was sincere. 
His statements about what he was going to do escalated throughout the 
conversation.

> Mike:
> Besides, I called Snape stupid for being so hell-bent on catching 
> Lupin in a compromising situation that he didn't stop to think how 
he 
> was going to subdue a werewolf.

zgirnius:
You are ignoring my suggestion that he did not necessarily plan to go 
in after Lupin, but rather to watch the exit for the appearance (he 
hoped) of Black. Finding evidence that one or more students were 
already in there would have changed his plans.

Once he did know, he really was stuck going in. But it was still not 
entirely a reckless suicide mission. Snape appears to have mastery of 
at least two spells that I would bet could handle a werewolf.

> > zgirnius:
> > Lupin especially, who in the excitement of the night forgot 
> > he had not taken his potion on *two* separate occasions.
> 
> Mike:
> I see one, what is two?

zgirnius:
1) when he ran out of his office without stopping by to pick it up 
himself, and
2) after Snape reminded him, when he went with Sirius and the Trio 
out of the Shack instead of staying where he could transform without 
danger to anyone else.

Mike:
> But Lupin is irresponsible for not sitting in his office and 
waiting 
> for Snape to show up with his potion. Just let whatever's happening 
> happen, Lupin. Don't be bothered, remember, you're the wimpy do-
> nothing of the Marauders.

zgirnius:
I am engaged in a defense of Snape. You need to find another customer 
if you want to read an attack on Lupin. I find it one of the great 
charms of the HP series that there are characters that I like, and 
find good, who are on the same side, and yet loathe and suspect each 
other, or inspire loathing and suspicion, on grounds I myself find 
reasonable. 

> Mike:
> So originally, he might have intended to sit outside the Willow 
> throwing stones at it to see how far the Willow could hit them? 
Just 
> waiting for the both of them to emerge? 

zgirnius:
Umm, that would be red-handed, would it not? If they emerged 
together? Also, I would think he expected Black to emerge sooner 
rather than later, since he had no reason to suspect Black had the 
means to survive unscathed in an enclosed space with a werewolf.