Lupin in the Shrieking Shack was Re: On the perfection of moral virtues.

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 169100

> Betsy Hp:
> Actually, Snape is the head of a house.  So he's got greater 
> responsibility and therefore greater authority in some issues.  
> Plus, there's the seniority thing. <g>

Mike:
OK, Head of House means you get to tie up and gag all those flunky, 
non-Head of House Professors. <eg> Got it. Sounds like he's Head of 
*Animal* House and the other Profs are pledges (that's pronounced 
with maximum spit a la Neidermeyer).


> Betsy Hp:
> Um, no it wasn't.  Lupin *did* help out Sirius; he kept Sirius's 
> secrets.  The only thing Snape was wrong about was Sirius being the 
> traitor.  Lupin was *extremely* lucky there.

Mike:
Actively helping Sirius versus passively not revealing the secrets.  
Well, if not quite apples and oranges, then how about apples and crab-
apples. <g> 

"It seems -- almost impossible -- that Black could of entered the 
school without inside help. I did express my concerns when you 
appointed --" (Snape speaking, p.166, PoA) 

"You think a joke shop could supply him with such a thing? You don't 
think it more likely that he got it *directly from the manufacturers?
* (Snape, p.288, PoA)

"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your
old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not
even I dreamed you would have the nerve to use this old place as your
hideout." (Snape again, p.359, PoA)

Sirius being the traitor wasn't the only thing Snape was wrong about 
with regards to Lupin. Besides, Lupin thought Black was the traitor, 
too, right up until the Shack. So that wasn't the point of 
difference. What I was trying to convey <obviously not very well, 
grin>, was how much Snape was wrong about *Lupin*. And he was wrong 
because he based all his assumptions on Marauder!Lupin. Snape is 
stuck on his grudge and that drives his opinion of Lupin.


> Betsy HP:
> What Snape's past gave him was a keen insight into the various 
> weaknesses of the Marauders.  And he was correct about Lupin.  
> Lupin put his reputation above the safety of Harry and his loyalty 
> to Dumbledore.

Mike:
I'm not going to argue against weak!Lupin, as I said to Pippin, I 
agree with that position. But Snape's *keen* insight includes a bias 
that leads him to insightful comments like "a *tame* werewolf -", 
and "Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works." IOW, 
Snape brings a healthy bias along with his insight.


> Betsy Hp:
> Wait, is this in doubt?  I've always assumed that the Patronus 
> messenger thing has been around since the first Order.  Do you have 
> canon that suggests otherwise?

Mike:
Nope. Got any to suggest it was? I was under the impression that 
Dumbledore just started using it around GoF and taught the others 
around OotP. But who knows?


> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, I see.  IMO, Snape barely had the situation under control when 
> suddenly the Trio turned on him.  Plus, he would have needed to 
> take his wand off of Sirius in order to conjure the Patronus.  A 
> worry that Lupin did not have.

Mike:
My read is that Snape has gone off the deep end by the time he ties 
Lupin and cows Black. So you're right, Snape had no real chance to 
fire off a Patronus, but it's because he's gone rabid and the kids 
see that, seperately and simultaneously.


> Betsy Hp:
> Honestly, I think Snape *did* want to catch Lupin in the act.  I'm 
> quite sure he was frustrated that Dumbledore put so much trust in 
> Lupin.  Especially as he watched (from Snape's pov) Lupin seduce 
> Harry to his side.
> 
> I'm guessing that (in a sort of Prank redux) Snape wanted to catch 
> Lupin doing something so obviously wrong Dumbledore would be forced 
> to face the fact that Lupin really *is* bad.  Just as Sirius had 
> been shown to be.

Mike:
Agreed. <g>


> Betsy Hp:
> I'm guessing that Snape didn't stop to send a Patronus once he 
> stumbled upon the invisibility cloak because he wasn't sure exactly 
> what Lupin was up to with Harry in the Shack.  (I don't think Snape 
> knew exactly what was going on.  He expressed some surprise that 
> Sirius was actually there.)

Mike:
This is where it becomes hard. Some others are just as sure that 
Snape knew full well what he would find, at least as far as the 
Black/Lupin conspiracy. I tend to agree more with your reading, 
Betsy, in as much as I think Snape thought he would be catching Lupin 
at something but couldn't count on Black being there.


> Betsy Hp:
> Right, except Harry trusts Lupin.  This whole scene began because 
> Snape *doesn't* trust Lupin.  Imagine the scene redone, only Harry 
> bursts in on Snape doing an explanation soliloquy.  Do you think 
> Harry would pause and listen, or do you think he'd wrap Snape up to 
> take to the authorities?  Especially if he heard Snape admit to 
> killing Dumbledore?
> 
> Honestly, I don't think Snape acts out of line here at all.  
> Everything he does makes perfect sense, IMO.

Mike:
Let's draw a more parallel hypothetical analogy, reverse Snape and 
Lupin. Have Snape be the one who saw Pettigrew on the map. Have Snape 
telling how he had infiltrated the DEs and that he was the one who 
knew Pettigrew was the traitor. And let's have Lupin know that Snape 
had been a DE. Would a suddenly revealed Lupin have bound and gagged 
Snape? Would Harry sit by and let it happen before he could find out 
who had betrayed the Order? Who had really betrayed his parents? Even 
if it was coming from Snape, I gotta believe Harry would want to know.

Now, if Lupin did bind and gag Snape, would he have been out of line? 
After all, Lupin would know Snape was a DE and wouldn't have known 
Pettigrew was the traitor.


> Betsy Hp:
> That he doesn't take the opportunity to kill Sirius (and Lupin for 
> that matter) tells me that Snape is not blinded by thoughts of 
> revenge.  Either that, or Snape isn't really all that bloodthristy 
> and is more interested in justice than vengence.  Which points to a 
> man with a pretty strong sense of principle, IMO.

"Vengence is very sweet, ... How I hoped I would be the one to catch 
you ..."

"Up to the castle? ... I don't think we need to go that far. All I 
have to do is call the dementors once we get out of the Willow."

"I'll drag the werewolf. Perhaps the dementors will have a kiss for 
him too --"

Mike:
Oh yeah, revenge wasn't on Snape's mind at all?! Judge, jury and 
executioner's aide-de-camp for Lupin points to a strong interest in 
justice?! Gag the werewolf, don't let him explain, they're all a 
bunch of lying traitors - that's a man of principle for ya?!


> Betsy Hp:
> I know!  Oy, the humanity! Gosh, it just explains so much of 
> Snape's completely losing it later, IMO.  He makes this horrible 
> mistake, does his best to correct it, and Sirius Black comes along 
> and screws the entire thing up.  

Mike:
Yeah, damn that Sirius Black. All Snape does is make one little 
mistake in joining the Death Eaters, ... umm, spies and eavesdrops on 
Dumbledore - so two, two little mistakes, ... aaah, and delivers the 
partial prophesy to Voldemort to get the ball rolling downhill at the 
Potters - so three, three little mistakes. But if it weren't for that 
damn Black trying to keep his best friend alive, nothing would have 
come of it. Don't you just hate meddling best friends and Godfathers?


> Betsy Hp:
> Snape's moral authority comes from being a person who acts.  Which 
> automatically puts him on a higher moral plane than Lupin, even if 
> Lupin is a good guy.  If Snape had taken the view that his mistake 
> in his youth makes him unworthy of ever acting again, then yeah, 
> he'd be just as weak as Lupin and not much with the authority.

Mike:
So in the one case in canon where Lupin actually gets off his duff 
and does something, it counts for nothing, actually gets him in worse 
trouble. 

But Snape started out at minus 100 on the morality scale for his past 
transgressions, while Lupin's weak sister act only earns him a minus 
10 or so. Lupin hasn't done anything that lead to the death of a man 
that had previously saved his life. Lupin hasn't joined forces with 
the most evil wizard of the century, so he hadn't needed to serve 
penitence for that past mistake.


> Betsy HP:
> But Snape also has the moral authority of being the only adult in 
> the room completely loyal to Dumbledore.  You know, if the rest 
> doesn't cut it for you. <eg>

Mike:
Is that the same Dumbledore that Snape AKs three books later? Or 
perchance did you mean Aberforth? <very, very evil grin>