Snape's involvement in the murder of Sirius

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 169179

> >>Jen:  I went back through and read sections with Kreacher and    
> have to agree he makes sense in all the things he says, that he    
> doesn't seem confused.

Betsy Hp:
Yay! <bg>

> >>Jen:
> What I also didn't see from him is direct evidence that he is      
> noticing the quality or depth of personal relationships.  He makes 
> assessments about the actions people in the house are taking or 
> extrapolates out from information he has heard but doesn't appear   
> to notice anything about how people relate to one another.  Magpie 
> mentioned the example of Sirius breaking his mother's heart and to 
> me that example is one of many of him repeating information he's    
> heard from Mrs. Black or others he respects.  If Mrs. Black was     
> anything as dramatic as her portrait appears to be, she likely      
> enumerated all the ways Sirius broke her heart and disappointed her 
> to anyone who was in listening range. <g>
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Now this is interesting, and I'm not sure I'll change any minds here, 
because I think it all comes down to interpertation of canon rather 
than canon itself, but I read this very differently.  I actually see 
Kreacher's statement that Sirius broke Mrs. Black's heart as him 
figuring out the true pain, the real feelings Mrs. Black actually hid 
beneath her rage.

But that's because I read Mrs. Black as less of a Tennessee Williams' 
version of the mad matriarch, sweet and smothering as rotting 
perfume, and more of a cold, calculating, appearance before feelings 
type.  Less, "why don't you love me the most?!?" and more, "why do 
you let your base heart guide you?", if that makes sense.  And I feel 
like Mrs. Black would hate more than anything, anyone finding out 
that Sirius's leaving actually *hurt* her.

So the fact that Kreacher picked up on it, that he zeroed in on the 
real reason for all of Mrs. Black's rage tells me that he's actually 
very good at seeing the actual emotion behind someone's actions.

> >>Jen:  
> <snip>
> My point was that Kreacher can't see distinctions enough to even   
> tell Hermione is being condescending if she is.  He evaluates her   
> only from her blood status.  He's just not showing much nuance!  

Betsy Hp:
The nuance I see him showing is knowing exactly how to hurt Hermione 
the most: dismiss all of her efforts as the ignorant prattling of 
stupid mudblood.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > I think Snape's loyalty and the reason Dumbledore trusts him     
> > completely comes from the fact that both Snape and Dumbledore    
> > share pretty much the same beliefs.  

> >>Jen:  I went back to read the times Dumbledore talks about       
> trusting Snape.  The times I could find, in GOF, OOTP and HBP, the 
> context is the same thing, something to the effect of Harry asking, 
> how do you know he is loyal to us, to our side, to you,            
> Dumbledore?  And each time Dumbledore states his standard phrase.  
> Given the way Dumbledore says what is essential to say and no more, 
> my belief now is Dumbledore's answer is saying:  I trust Severus   
> Snape is loyal to me and not to Voldemort.

Betsy Hp:
Right.  And Dumbledore trusts (completely! <g>) Snape's loyalty 
*because* he recognizes that he and Snape share the same beliefs, 
while Snape and Voldemort do not.

> >> Jen:
> That's all Dumbledore needs to know to trust Snape, that he is on 
> Dumbledore's side and not Voldemort's and that he will never return 
> to Voldemort.  It doesn't mean he thinks Snape is a great guy, that 
> he has unimpeachable morals, that he can't lie or make choices 
> Dumbledore doesn't approve of or anything of that nature.

Betsy Hp:
But it's more than knowing what side Snape is on, it's knowing that 
Snape is trustworthy.  *Completely* trustworthy.  So actually, I *do* 
think Dumbledore thinks Snape is a great guy with a strong sense of 
morals who won't lie to Dumbledore and will try his damnedest to make 
the right choices.

I do agree that Dumbledore doesn't think Snape unimpeachable or 
incapable of making mistakes.  I fully believe Dumbledore realizes 
Snape is human, just as Dumbledore realizes that he, himself, is 
human.  And I don't think (nor do I think that Dumbledore thinks) 
that Snape is a clone or drone of Dumbledore.  But I do think they 
share the same basic beliefs and so Dumbledore trusts Snape because 
he trusts Snape's moral foundation.  The place from which Snape makes 
his choices, if you will.

> >>Jen:
> DH may bring information to change my mind and more elaboration by 
> Dumbledore in some post-humous form, but until then, Dumbledore's 
> statement of trust refers to Snape's loyalty only given the context 
> of how it is asked.

Betsy Hp:
That Dumbledore answers the question *beyond* the scope of the 
question suggests to me (oh, heck, it leaves me smugly certain <g>) 
that Dumbledore actually does trust Snape... well... completely. <bg>

> >>Jen:  <snip> ...I wanted to elaborate on the scene in the kitchen 
> in GP. 
> <snip>
> The incident also fueled Snape's rage and led him to up his        
> taunting to a new level... <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Okay, this is really fascinating to me, because again, I read the 
kitchen scene completely differently.  Snape doesn't seem at all 
enraged in this scene to me. On the contrary, Snape seems very much 
in control.

Sirius is the one who escalates, first with physical intimidation, 
then drawing his wand, his voice rising with every statement.  Snape, 
on the other hand, speaks more and more softly, and while he 
certainly acts defensively (pulling his own wand) and while he very 
much taunts Sirius, Snape is not emotional.  The emotion, despite 
Sirius's best efforts, is all Sirius's.

[An aside: I love, love, love this scene. So very, very, 
much. ::thinks about Snape for a while::]

> >>Jen:
> <snip>
> There's also the possibility Snape simply believes Sirius is a     
> danger to himself and others, that he was once a murderer and       
> hasn't changed 'his spots' and that Sirius is capable of messing up 
> Dumbledore's plan even if Dumbledore is too trusting to see it.     
> That one actually fits Snape's characterization the more I think    
> about it, imo.

Betsy Hp:
Gosh, to me that actually goes completely *against* Snape's 
characterization.  For some reason I just don't see Snape acting like 
such a lone wolf.  While I can see Snape throwing horrible fits in 
Dubmledore's study when he disagreed with Dumbledore, I just cannot 
see Snape deciding to take matters into his own hands.

Again, it's a bit of a fine line, because I don't see Snape as 
Dumbledore's mindless drone.  But I do think that once Dumbledore put 
his foot down (ie, "Lupin *will* be the new DADA professor") Snape 
would acquiesce.  Not *gracefully* of course. <g>  There'd be tons of 
mutterings and/or acid asides, but Snape would still do as Dumbledore 
wished.

The ones who'd most likely strike out on their own; the ones who 
actually *did* strike out on their own were the Marauders.  But 
Snape?  No, I'm pretty sure Snape was, and is, Dumbledore's man 
through and through.

Betsy Hp