Lupin in the Shrieking Shack (Long)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169182

> Carol responds:
> Oh, Mike. You've already admitted that Snape is protecting Harry 
> from SS/PS forward. In this instance, he finds Harry's Invisibility 
> Cloak outside the entrance to the tunnel and knows him to be in the 
> company of a werewolf about to transform, one he suspects of being 
> in league with the would-be murderer who slashed up the painting of 
> the Fat Lady and Ron's bedcurtains, and whom he knows can get into 
> the Shrieking Shack, and he lacks the "moral authority" to enter 
> the tunnel and protect Harry from one or both of these dangerous 
> people? Don't forget that Snape and Dumbledore and everyone else 
> believes that Harry is Black's intended victim and that Black was 
> Voldemort's righthand man, the spy who betrayed the Potters and the 
> murderer of thirteen people.
<snip>

Dana:
Snape assumes that Lupin is helping Sirius Black and this while 
Sirius Black is accused of killing the Potters and Pettigrew, who 
were Lupin's friends, so on what basis does Snape assume that Lupin 
was the only remaining friend that Black had? Snape was already 
accusing Lupin BEFORE Sirius slashed the painting and BEFORE he 
caught Harry with the map. 

And again if Snape was so concerned about this soon to transform 
werewolf then why did he take his mighty time to listen in on the 
conversation and not rush in and take these 3 students away from this 
serious threat to their lives or why when he had control over the 
situation did he want to drag this soon to be werewolf out of the 
shack and risk Lupin transforming in a confined space like the tunnel 
were no one could have gone anywhere to get to safety? 

Snape again, just like in PS, put Harry at risk by not going to the 
proper authority BEFORE he even knew Harry was present in the shack. 
He does not know for certain that Black even is in the shack, it is 
again just an assumption. What if Lupin was just so fed up with 
Snape's taunts about taking the potion that he instead chose to not 
take it and go to the shack to safely transform there? If Lupin had 
killed Snape in a situation like that would it then be Lupin's fault 
or Snape's, for being so stupid to follow him in on a hunch, that was 
directed by a schoolboy grudge and not on any logic that Lupin would 
actually still be friends enough with Black to help him trying to 
kill Harry. 

Snape with his assumptions actually accuses Lupin for being somehow 
involved in the Potters death too because if their death's wasn't 
enough for Lupin to never want to talk to Sirius ever again and why 
he never tried to get him out of Azkaban for 12 years, then he must 
already have been Sirius accomplish for that too because why else 
does Lupin want to help Sirius kill Harry? (Well Pippin would have a 
blast if this would proof to be true but I doubt that JKR was going 
for this) 

So you say that it is okay for Snape to hunt down Lupin based on the 
speculative information that he comes across over the course of the 
year? Him even being in the proximity of willow to even notice Harry 
invisibility cloak without alerting DD makes him wrong, very wrong 
because it is not Snape's authority to be judge, jury and executioner 
for either one of them but especially not Lupin. And as we see he did 
the same thing in PS where he found it upon himself to address 
Quirrell while him wanting the stone had nothing to do with Snape and 
it was not Snape's authority to question Quirrell's loyalties or even 
accuse him of anything. 

I never read any description in canon that said that Severus Snape 
had a blinking Sheriff (of Nottingham) badge on his robes, that gives 
him the authority to hunt down potential or wanted criminals. He 
again had no authority to even question Quirrel's loyalties and 
should have reported his suspicions to DD. The troll alone could have 
killed three students that Snape could have done nothing about and 
Snape's actions in these events already indicate that he was on to 
Quirrell, yet he did nothing but meddle in things that were not his 
concern.  

And just for the record why would Snape not know it was Quirrell 
hexing the broom? First there is no canon that indicates that outside 
spectators came to watch the match and if JKR had wanted to make the 
reader believe it could have been anyone besides directing us to 
Snape then she would have included this in canon. 
So besides Quirrell, Snape was working with the other teachers for 10 
years so why would he expect them to suddenly to want to kill Harry? 
And if so then him suspecting Quirrell wanting to steal the stone 
makes no sense either as that too could have been any of the other 
teachers but of course it is besides the point because if he had done 
what he was supposed to have done and report Quirrell to DD then the 
hexing broom event would not have occurred at all. So again Snape put 
people in harms way unnecessary just because he wanted to be the only 
hero on the block which prevented him from seeking the proper way of 
how to deal with such things.

And this makes his rescue attempt of Harry irrelevant because he was 
the cause of Harry being in danger in the first place by not going to 
DD instead and the same goes for PoA because Snape took matters into 
his own hands once again.  

Carol:
> Nor does it have anything to do with a schoolboy grudge
> beyond his belief that both Black and Lupin are capable of murder 
> and have been since their schoolboy days. It has everything to do 
> with the very real danger presented by a werewolf he himself has 
> seen in its transformed state and the presumed danger presented by 
> the man he knows to be Lupin's former friend and has every reason 
> to suspect is out to kill Harry.
<snip>

Dana:
Again on what basis does Snape conclude that Lupin would still be a 
friend to Sirius after him being accused of killing his other friends 
of which one saved him from becoming guilty of attacking Snape? Is 
that logical or was there any proof for this at the moment Lupin 
became a teacher at Hogwarts that supported this claim? Remember that 
Sirius did not go after Pettigrew but it was said that Pettigrew went 
after Sirius so Lupin being alive did not mean Sirius spared him 
because he considered him still to be his most important friend. 
Snape has witnessed the dynamic of the marauders for 7 years and knew 
that Sirius and James were like brothers so by what logical thinking 
process, did Snape conclude that Sirius was capable of betraying 
James but was still big buddies with Lupin. 

Or even what indication did Snape even have that got him the idea 
that Lupin hated Harry enough to want to aid Sirius? 

Carol:
> As others have mentioned, he also thinks that Lupin has given Harry 
a way to get into Hogsmeade (into the hands of Sirius Black) and that
> Lupin is letting Black into the castle. (He doesn't know when he
> rushes out that Black is an Animagus, and he never does learn, 
> AFAIK,that Black's real accomplice is Crookshanks the Cat.) He 
> hears Lupin talk about concealing critical information about 
> his "murderer" accomplice and hears him say "Snape was right about 
> me." Well, what would that mean to Snape? What has Snape been 
> suspecting all year about Lupin? If "Snape is right about [Lupin]," 
> wouldn't Snape take that to mean that Lupin--whom he knows has not 
> taken his potion--is untrustworthy and dangerous and that he is the 
> murderer's accomplice?
<snip>

Dana:
Snape did not have any supporting evidence that it was Lupin either 
that let Sirius Black into the castle and if he knew who "the 
manufactures" of the map were then he could also deduce that Sirius 
knew his way around Hogwarts without Lupin's help. Also is it logical 
for Lupin to send Harry to Hogsmeade where there were so many wizards 
and witches that could have detected Sirius being present and raise 
the alarm before Sirius could even lift his wand? Who says the place 
wasn't already swamped with auror's? We know the Dementor's were 
pretty close and Sirius might have been able to pass them by without 
being noticed but he surely would not have gone unnoticed if he 
wandered around Hogsmeade waiting for Harry to show up. 

All other things you pull in as evidence are already after Snape acts 
on his assumptions and then taking his mighty time listening in on a 
supposed murderous lunatic and his accomplice that could turn into a 
werewolf at any second and are therefore irrelevant to account for 
his previous wrongful actions. Snape hearing Lupin say "Snape was 
right" would not change anything about the supposed fact that Lupin 
was about to transform into a werewolf and the threat this posed to 
Harry and his friends. 

Lupin already told the story about Sirius being an animagus and why 
Lupin did not want to tell DD about it and that he made himself 
believe it was Dark Arts that Sirius used to enter the castle so 
maybe it is just me but why would Snape selectively use what he hears 
as evidence (which he of course indeed does) but disregard the rest 
of Lupin's statements that clearly indicates that he did not help 
Sirius into the castle but that he just omitted information. Lupin's 
admission of guilt of not telling DD is by no means proof that Lupin 
helped Sirius at all and if Snape believes this part of Lupin's 
statement then why not the rest of it? 

Snape is listening in on the conversation from the moment Lupin 
begins to tell about him being a werewolf and how he came to Hogwarts 
and the reason his friends became animagi for him and them making the 
map together. He even mentions their nicknames while Snape is 
listening. Snape hears Lupin tell that Peter's animagus form was so 
small that it made him able to pass the willow and touch the knob and 
that both Sirius and James were such large animals that they could 
keep a werewolf in check. Still all that he hears is not enough to 
deduce that the story, about Peter still being alive and being a rat 
in his animagus form, while he could have noticed a rat being present 
in their company and even while Sirius specifically states that he'll 
come quietly as long as Ron brings his rat, might indeed be true. 

Yet you claim that Lupin's statement was enough evidence for Snape to 
make his final judgment and feed the both of them to the Dementor's. 
While what Lupin really states had actually nothing to do with him 
admitting he was helping Black, just that he did not tell DD 
everything he knew but as we see Snape is there instead of going to 
DD to tell him everything he knows like Lupin forgetting his potion. 

To be honest with you if Snape had not intervened Lupin would 
probably have been back in time to take his potion and be a safe 
werewolf and that is also probably the reason why Lupin walked out 
with the rest of them because he lost track of time and as we see in 
OotP it takes a very long time for the sun to really set, so Snape 
made matters worse by messing with things. 

Carol:
> As zgirnius pointed out, this discussion isn't about Lupin. It's 
> about Snape, and what Snape would think, based on the available 
> information about both Black and Lupin, was going on. (He is, of 
> course, partly right and partly wrong. Lupin *is* about to 
> transform into a terrible monster and Black *is* intending to 
> murder someone. He just thinks, as HRH also did and to some degree 
> still do, that the intended victim is Harry. Note that Harry, who 
> has heard more of the story than Snape has, is still not persuaded 
> at that point. The only reason that he and the others disarm Snape--
> not intending to knock him out, which is not the usual result of 
> that spell--is to hear the rest of the story.)
<snip>

Dana:
This discussion as everything to do with Lupin and the assumption 
Snape made about him that led him to his actions. 
Again Snape did not know when he went after Lupin that HRH were even 
there and this action alone was already morally wrong because he 
convicted Lupin on circumstantial evidence and what does he care if 
Lupin is going to tear Sirius Black to pieces? Good riddance right? 
So why was it any of his business to go after Lupin in the first 
place? Because seeing Lupin go to the shack would not cause Lupin to 
be a threat to anyone as he would be safely hidden behind the willow 
if he did transform. So what need was there for Snape to act at all? 

Sirius would not be able to release werewolf Lupin if he transformed 
in his presents so no threat there either. He did not go after Lupin 
because he thought he was going to transform at any minute, he went 
after Lupin because he wanted to proof DD wrong at all costs and get 
his revenge on the marauders playing a trick on him and him not 
wanting to believe that Lupin had not been in on the joke. He did not 
go to apprehend a suspected murderer and his accomplice that were 
supposedly after Harry, he went in there so he could finally proof to 
DD that he was wrong about the marauders almost 20 years ago and that 
Snape could finally have the last word. 

If he really had cared about justice being served then he would have 
come to different conclusions after listening to Lupin telling his 
story for more then 10 minutes, seeing that the three kids were armed 
while both Lupin and Sirius had no wand in hand or indeed even seeing 
and hearing a rat squeaking frantically to get away. If justice was 
the only thing on his mind then why not let Lupin finish his story, 
he had already been listening to it without interfering for MORE THEN 
10 MINUTES. Why the sudden rush? Maybe because he did not want to 
listen because he did not want to let anything get in his way of 
getting his revenge? Certainly not something annoying like the truth. 

The kids did not take Snape out just to hear the rest of the story 
because they would have allowed Snape taking them all to the castle 
if he had been reasonable and not threaten Sirius and Lupin from ever 
being able to tell their story to DD. Hermione tries to reason with 
Snape and is yelled at, Harry tries to reason with Snape and is 
threatened to be removed forcefully if he doesn't step aside and let 
Snape do his thing. All three of them had already agreed to hear 
Lupin out before Snape intervenes and only Snape's unreasonable 
behavior made them decide simultaneously to disarm him. 

They did not do that just because they liked Lupin's story telling, 
they did that because they already decided that that is was only fair 
to have Lupin tell Sirius's story after he discovered Peter was alive 
and not killed by Sirius. If Snape had said: "it is for DD to decide 
what happens to Sirius and Lupin", then they all would have come 
quietly. Snape specifically states that he is not going to bring 
Sirius to the castle but that he will call the Dementor's as soon as 
they leave the willow. So the kids decide that if they do not act now 
(and each decides this individually without so much looking at each 
other and even Hermione does so) then Sirius only chance to be proven 
innocent if he indeed is, will be lost forever. 

If three kids think that Snape is so deranged that they feel they 
have to act to prevent Snape from feeding these two men to the 
Dementor's, then it is saying something about Snape's mental state at 
that particular time and it goes way beyond him merely wanting 
justice to be served, well at least not in relation to the Potters or 
Peter's death that is. Because essentially their death's is as much 
Snape's fault as it would be Sirius's (in this case Peter of course) 
because neither laid a hand on the Potters themselves and both 
provided LV with information that made him go after the Potters. We 
never see Snape tell DD, did you forget Sirius was the SK and 
therefore the only one that could have betrayed them. No, he tells DD 
to remember that Sirius wanted to kill HIM at age 16. 

And of course as we see who says Snape could have prevented the 
Dementor's giving Harry a little kiss too or even risk the Dementor's 
coming close to these three students? Yet that is what he states he 
is going to do. And maybe it is just me but it was no hollow threat.

Carol:
<snip>
> Instead, he overcomes his anger and resentment and presumably a 
> splitting headache (he was knocked unconscious by a blow to the > 
head and his head has also been allowed by Sirius Black to bump 
against the ceiling to the tunnel repeatedly) and takes the kids to 
safety and the "criminal" to the Minister of Magic. What good 
citizen, under the same circumstances and with thesame information, 
wouldn't do the same?
<snip>

Dana:
To bad that being knocked unconscious and his head being bumped 
against the ceiling, did not knock some sense into him and when he is 
talking to Fudge there does not seem to be any kind of headage 
preventing him from rushing things along instead of going to bed and 
let DD take care of the rest. 

Snape just witnessed the Dementor's wanting to kiss Harry so calling 
them back to have Sirius soul sucked would also mean that he would 
risk them trying to kiss Harry again and that would have been a 
little hard to explain to DD. Him bringing everyone to the castle 
probably had nothing to do with him overcoming his anger and as we 
see he actually doesn't because as soon as his hands are free, he 
tries to rush Sirius getting soul sucked before DD can intervene.

Again if Snape was all about justice being served then listening to 
DD's hints would have been enough but that is just the problem 
because Snape wanted to proof DD wrong at all costs and when he 
couldn't, he wanted to get Sirius soul sucked so him being proven 
innocent later, would not matter one way or the other. And only for 
this action alone I could never ever see Snape as one of the good 
guys again or consider him acting morally appropriate because Sirius 
never had a trail (and Snape could have known this) and therefore he 
had every right to be heard and it was not up to Snape to make a 
final judgment on the basis of what he assumed to be true. He was 
disloyal to DD for over stepping his decision about Lupin and Snape 
truly wanted to have a man's life taken just because he was convinced 
that he was entitled to make such a judgment because Sirius played a 
joke on him 20 years ago. 

Snape deliberately omits information to Fudge about what he did hear 
in the Shack and the one thing that Sirius indeed could proof and 
that he was an animagus which would have made the story about 
Wormtail being a rat animagus believable, after all even if Snape did 
not see Pettigrew himself he did see a rat that is no longer in Ron's 
possession. If Snape had done so then he could have given merit to 
Harry and Hermione's story and later Lupin's and Ron's and even if 
this had not been enough for Fudge to chance his mind then at least 
it would have been fair but Snape doesn't, he even deliberately seeds 
more doubt about their story by lying to Fudge they were put under a 
spell. Snape knew very well from observing the scene that they were 
not under any spell because they were the once holding the wands.  

It is interesting to note that DD also knew Lupin was loose on the 
grounds but that he still found it safe enough for Hermione and Harry 
to go through the events for a second time. Lupin was no were to be 
seen and did not even come when he could have such easy pray in all 
of them. Sirius had already taken care of Lupin enough for him to 
take flight. Snape doesn't even know why Lupin is not there because 
he was unconscious during these events so he doesn't even know if 
Lupin might be still in the shack or actually loose on the grounds. 
(Just a side note: It is interesting that JKR sneaked, Sirius making 
up for the prank, by us, right then and there,. Sirius prevents Lupin 
from harming anyone that night and he saved Snape's life at the same 
time, funny really funny)  

And to answer your question about what a good citizen would have 
done, they would have notified either DD or the MoM that they had a 
suspicion about Sirius Black's whereabouts and if they still decided 
to go in and check it out themselves then a good citizen would have 
reacted just like the three kids reacted and let the man tell his 
story before placing any judgment. 

And if we want to drag Lupin's actions in, to compare them to 
Snape's, then Lupin had every reason to assume that things might go 
very wrong if he didn't act right away because Lupin did witness 
Sirius colliding with the kids and he did witness Sirius disappearing 
with Ron and Peter into the tunnel leading to the shack and then saw 
Harry and Hermione follow and even if Lupin decided that Peter 
showing up on the map was seeding doubt about Sirius involvement in 
killing the Potters and thus him not going after Harry, he knows that 
Sirius can be rash. But as we see Lupin when he comes in immediately 
takes action to make sure no one can be harmed by removing the wands. 
And only after Peter admits he is guilty of betraying the Potters, 
does he indeed led himself get carried away by wanting to play 
executioner but still he listens to reason when Harry intervenes. 
Snape never does, not even when DD hints there is enough merit to 
Sirius's story to take actions because of it.   

In my country a person is innocent until proven guilty and 
assumptions are not evidence of guilt. 4 people tried to persuade 
Snape to just take a moment and listen but in Snape's world only his 
own judgment of things count and that makes Snape a very dangerous 
man indeed. A man driven by his hatred and his urge to seek revenge 
and who has compartmentalized his moral sense to such an extent that 
he doesn't even know he still has it when it doesn't serve his own 
personal needs. 

A man that does not trust the judgment of the only man that prevented 
him from going to Azkaban. A man that keeps everybody of Snape's back 
by not revealing what Snape had done that supposedly caused him so 
much remorse. A man that listened to Snape's story and gave him a 
chance while his association with LV would have been enough for a 
life time in prison (and DD does this twice as we see in GoF, first 
after LV's downfall and second when Karkaroff mentions Snape's name). 
But when it is asked of him to just take a moment to listen he does 
not have to do what others did for him because what Sirius did to him 
at age 16 was enough to make him pay for it with his life.  

It is interesting though that Snape using his moral authority to go 
after Lupin without him actually posing a threat to anyone if he 
transformed in the shack and Snape does not know until he gets there 
that Harry (or Sirius) is even there. While these same arguments are 
used to clear Snape from any blame for losing Harry out of his sight 
for 4 to 6 hours because it wasn't Snape's responsibility and Snape 
supposedly could not have known Umbridge was a serious threat to 
Harry's safety while she tried to remove him from Hogwarts twice (she 
was at the trial and if DD had not brought in a witness then Harry 
would have lost his case). 

Not even when she just told Snape she caught Harry red-handed with 
his head in her fireplace which would be enough reason to kick 
Harry's butt to the curve so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. 
What makes Umbridge, who actually was a threat to Harry all year, 
different from Lupin? Oh yes, I forgot there was no schoolboy grudge 
that motivated Snape to convict Umbridge by her mere presence. Her 
attempts to remove Harry, which caused DD's removal instead, was not 
enough evidence that she was out to get Harry and remove him from 
Hogwarts. 

Which actually would pose a threat to Harry and would provide him 
every opportunity to find a way to the DoM or even LV being able to 
get to him, if no Order Member was ready to get him to safety. While 
a map in Harry's possession WAS supposedly enough evidence to 
conclude Lupin wanted to hand Harry over to Sirius? Makes real sense 
to me, pardon my natural sarcastic take on this reasoning. 

JMHO

Dana