[HPforGrownups] Marietta/Did Snape set up the Pensieve scene?

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 169287

Eggplant:

All those crying over Marietta's acne should remember that if this was real
life and a secret underground organization had discover one of their own
members had betrayed them to the fascist enemy that traitor would be very
lucked indeed to survive with her life. This is no
longer kid stuff, this is life and death, and there is no reason to
except our literary heroes would fit in comfortably with Saturday
morning cartoon morality. 

Magpie:
No, I don't that is what would happen if this were real life--if you want
to talk cartoon morality, I think that would apply more to the idea that
the set up for the DA makes it on par with a secret underground
organization you seem to be linking it to. You don't start a life and death
underground organization by grabbing a few people in the library, including
the girl who likes your friend, and some chick who's friends with her (that
you don't know and never get to know), and say you want to, like, having a
study club because, you know, OWLS are really important and, you know,
Voldemort. And if you sign this piece of loose leaf people you're saying
you won't tell the teacher. When what you really need is a group of people
actually loyal to you personally who are all on the same page and know what
they're signing up for and are willing to make that promise.

If all this was so important, I'm surprised Hermione's actions are defended
at all when they were so obviously dangerous to her own organization. I
think by now Hermione could actually admit to them. . (To be honest, I've
lost track of the number of prople in this justice system who deserve a
bullet in the brain and no jury in the world who would convict anyone for
it according to the non-cartoon morality system.)

 Bart:
> That was based on the in-canon indications of Hermione's lack of 
originality in spellcasting, which makes it HIGHLY unlikely that she 
could come up with a spell that experts can't undo. Therefore we have it in
canon that: 

A) Hermione cast the spell.
B) Nobody HAS undone the spell.
C) It is highly unlikely that nobody CAN undo the spell. 

Therefore, if people can, but people don't, it is likely that people won't.

Magpie:
I think that's leap off shaky ground, though. Whether or not Hermione
created the spell or not (and Hermione has canonically done new things with
spells that exist--weren't the coins her own invention based on existing
spells?), it seems obvious to assume that Marietta would be seeking people
out to try. People who would have little reason to know what she'd even
done. Why the big conspiracy against the girl, with apparently even her
parents joining in?

I think it makes far more sense to assume that because the spell has not
been undone no one has yet been able to undo it rather than create lots of
people actively against Marietta for some reason--especially her own mother
who was the person she was loyal to the ministry for. The Twins did not do
anything creative to Montague, and he still was difficult to cure. Hermione
can have done something powerful without having to have created another
Sectumsempra.

Random:
It's possible that she's not "moved on" 
as some here have said, but is ignoring it to avoid facing her own 
guilt and sense of failure at being unable to reverse it.

Magpie:
That could certainly be possible--if we see it. Just going on what we saw
Hermione focused on since the hexing, there's not much evidence she's
worried about it. That interpretation doesn't require us to come up with
stuff that goes against what we're seeing.

bboyminn:

She is 'horribly disfigured' based on the INITIAL 
reaction of a teenage boy who is already in a very
stressful situation, and it is just acne. Who ever
said acne was fun? But to represent it, as some have,
as /oozing/ pustules makes it seem like her face has
become horribly infected and is on the verge of
gangrene. It's acne. What 'horribly disfigures' her
is the fact that the acne has taken on a specific
shape and form, and spells out an unpleasant word on
her face. 

Magpie:
I would have thought a teenaged boy might be less squeamish about such
thing. Purple pustules across your face sounds horribly disfiguring to me
no matter what shape they're in, though of course the brand is part of
it--and still there just as disfiguring as before. I'm sure most people
have had some acne as teenagers or as adults. I've never met anyone who had
purple pustules. I think the text makes it sound infected on its own. 

Steve:
Also, on this issue and on all other hotly debated issues,
I refuse to be more upset about it than the characters
themselves. Using Harry and Snape for example, many
fans are incensed that Harry doesn't apologies to Snape,
or that Snape doesn't apologies to Harry. Yet neither
Harry or Snape seem to feel an apology needs to be
offered or demanded. If they don't care, why should I?

Magpie:
I think there's good canonical reason to care when they don't. In this
case, just to remind us of another person in canon, Cho doesn't seem happy
either on this one. She thinks it was a mean trick. And Marietta herself,
who is one character who still seems very upset by it. (Unlike Hermione who
is not shown having any emotion about it at all.) 

As I said earlier, it reminds me of Montague. That was another person whose
predicament didn't upset any of our characters--and I didn't follow their
lead on that one either. They thought it was convenient. Only people who
liked him knew what he actually went through. To me that's canon
encouragement to think I might not be wrong to think Marietta's curse is
something to worry about since JKR for some reason decided to re-introduce
it in HBP, give Harry yet another chance to react differently, and have him
be pleased again. Just like she did with all the little mentions of
Montague. 

Lizzyben:
Hi, I've been wondering if maybe Snape deliberately let Harry look 
into the Pensieve in "Snape's Worst Memory." This would accomplish a few
things. 1.) It would give Snape an excuse for ending the Occlumency
lessons. He wants to end the lessons because he's already gotten the
memories he needs from Harry, & doesn't want Harry to actually learn
Occlumency. 2.) It would give him some petty revenge to show to Harry that
Snape was right about his father all along. 

Magpie:
I have a problem with any plan where Snape intentionally lets Harry see his
underwear. I don't think he'd be physically capable of doing that on
purpose. 

He also doesn't seem to have a very good reason for ending the Occlumency
lessons even in the theory. Why not just keep doing them? What important
memory did he supposedly get that he needed? 

Lizzyben:
1.) Montague, the Sytherin captain, was trapped in the Vanishing 
Closet by Fred & George a day before. Snape, as head of Household, searches
the castle for the missing boy until finally finding him in the Closet on
the first floor.

2.)Snape sees his opportunity. He stuns Montague, moves him to the 
fourth floor bathroom, and modifies his memory so that Montague will only
remember apparating into the bathroom. He asks Draco to search that very
area for the missing student, and tells Draco to notify 
him AT ONCE if Montague is found.

Magpie:
I think you just erased the plot of HBP. Montague remembers *everything*
about being in the Cabinet, including traveling back and forth between the
school and B&B and his Apparition into the toilet. Not only must Montague
remember stuff to tell it to the Slytherins, I think it's thematically
important that the Draco knows about it because he listened to the story
with the other Slytherin students. Draco doesn't act like Snape told him to
search the bathroom that I remember.

Lizzyben:

3.) Snape goes to his lesson with Harry. Before the lesson, he 
removes the memories into the Pensieve in front of Harry, almost 
tempting his curiosity. The text says that he "lazily" raised his 
wand to begin the spell - every other time, Snape invokes the spell 
immediately, giving Harry no chance to prepare. Why is he 
acting "lazily" now? Because he's waiting. 

Magpie:
Because they've been doing it for a while?

Lizzyben:
4.) On cue, Draco bursts in to tell Snape that Montague has been 
found. Snape doesn't snarl at this intrusion, but remarks "very 
well", and heads out of the office - leaving Harry behind. Snape 
doesn't put back his memories, doesn't put away the Pensieve, and 
doesn't escort Harry out. I find this odd - Snape has accused Harry 
of rummaging through his office before, and closely guards his 
privacy. Why would he suddenly leave Harry alone there? 

Magpie:
All this sounds suspicious enough when you put it that way, but it still
also sounds like you're taking what happened and writing a theory to fit it
instead of seeing real reasons to believe this just from reading it. First,
Snape has no reason to snarl at the intrusion--it's Draco. It seems a bit
much to count on Harry diving into the right memory of 3 in the Pensieve in
the short time he's gone.

My other question is: where's the payoff? I mean, the payoff to the
Montague story as we know it is in HBP with the Cabinet Plot. If the memory
trip wasn't planned I've got the payoff in Snape's humiliation and anger at
Harry. I don't see where the other story goes besides making Snape more
bad. There's no important memories he seems to get from Harry, Harry was
already having the dreams (and working against the very things Snape told
him in class to have more), there's no reason I see Snape has to stop the
lessons, there's no evidence on its own of Snape molesting Montague's mind.


Lizzyben:
5.) Harry, tempted by curiosity, does the same thing he did in DD's 
office - he dives into the Pensieve. Snape quickly takes Montague to 
the clinic, comes back down & enters to "discover" Harry. In a fit 
of rage, Snape yells, tosses Harry out, and ends the lessons from 
then on. He's created a valid excuse for stopping the Occlumency 
lessons, and he's also managed to gather Harry's memories & open his mind
so that Voldemort can plant a vision more easily. Finally, when DD
discovers this, it ironically increases his trust - because it "proves"
that Snape wasn't hiding any memories of treachery/betrayal in the
Pensieve, only a schoolyard fight. DD believes Snape is touchy, but loyal. 

Magpie:
I don't think Snape's acting when he's furious at Harry being in his
memory. That's one of those moments when Snape wears his emotions on his
sleeve. He seems genuinely angry in a way that fits his character in ways
Snape intentionally letting Harry see him humiliated and then only
pretending that would hurt him doesn't.

Lizzyben:
Evidence: First of all, students can't apparate in Hogwarts. 
Supposedly, Montague was found in the bathroom after "apparating" out of
the Vanishing Closet. This simply isn't possible. If he was in the
bathroom, someone or something else moved him there. Who? Why? Snape had
the means, motive & opportunity. 

Magpie:
It wasn't a normal Apparition, which seems to be the reason it was
dangerous.  But still, allowing that we have indeed been told that you're
not supposed to be able to Apparate in Hogwarts, if you start messing
around with Montague's memories you start messing with the story in HBP,
imo. Not just for technical reasons, imo, but by interfering with the irony
of the student war playing a part and sticking in Snape running around
messing with his students minds. Montague was trapped in limbo, so his just
appearing in the broken Cabinet is just as impossible as his Apparating
into the toilet. It seems nobody can re-appear in the Cabinet until Draco
fixes it.

Lizzyben:
Montague's symptoms are very unusual. Supposedly, he was only 
trapped in a closet for a day before apparating out. So why are the 
side effects so severe? He is described as "confused" and stunned. 
His parents are called, and he actually ends up spending weeks in 
the clinic, until he is finally sent to the hospital. It sounds like 
the effects of a "Confounding" potion or memory loss potion. And who knows
potions? SNAPE. Harry bursts into the clinic a few days later, and finds
Madame Pomfrey feeding Montague a "bright blue liquid". JKR rarely mentions
these details unless they are important. Why is the kind of potion
important? We know that Snape makes the potions for Madame Pomfrey - what
if he told her to feed Montague this potion regularly as a "cure"? However,
the potion is not a cure, but a befuddlement potion that is aimed at
preventing Montague from remembering the real events. 

Magpie:
But isn't it important that Montague remember his real time in the Cabinet?
Which, btw, I don't think we are told it's only a day that he's in the
Cabinet--I think it's longer.  His confusion seems linked to his time in
limbo and the difficulty he reports in getting out of the trap. (I don't
think his symptoms sound not like what we're told they're from--one might
as well say Neville's parents must have been Confunded since they, too,
have mind trouble.) 

And why would Montague need further memory loss Potions if Snape's memory
charmed him? We've seen memory charms and they work fine with one zap. I
think the reason this is brought up has nothing to do with the liquid being
important but JKR pointing to Montague again and again so that he can come
back at us in HBP with the Cabinet Plot. Montague's being truly befuddled
for a long time is validated in HBP where his experience in the Cabinet is
described as being rather harrowing and causing him to "almost die." I
don't see any reason for Snape to be continuously feeding the kid stuff. We
don't even see Snape in the Infirmary. 

Lizzyben:
The circumstances of Montague's "apparition" and "illness" are very 
unusual & almost inexplicable - I believe JKR meant these to be 
clues to indicate that something else actually occured here. 

Magpie:
I think they indicate that JKR was calling attention to Montague because
that story was going to be important. We're told his condition is unusual
but it's certainly not inexplicable. It's explained in HBP. So far, at
least, I don't see any indications that Snape did anything to the boy to
get Harry into his Pensieve and stop the Occlumency lessons.

-m