Responses to Marietta (was: Misc. responses, some quite old)

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 169291

> > wynnleaf
> > It's interesting that to make Hermione's decision 
> > "okay" readers generally have to add to canon some 
> > extra aspect to it that isn't even hinted at in canon.
> 
> bboyminn:
> Things can be justified in context, but not be good in
> general. I think that is what we have here. Hermione and
> many/most readers feel Hermione was justified in her 
> actions, but at the same time, feel it was a bad thing
> to do.
<snip>
The problem is Marietta
> is a minor subplot, so we have extremely limited
> information on the subject. Limited information
> opens the door to speculative resolutions.

wynnleaf
Nevertheless, there's a difference between speculation based on
specific hints and clues as opposed to simply coming up with
completely non-canon explanations, which, in my opinion, are not
persuasive especially in the face of some actual canon evidence to the
contrary.

 Steve/bboyminn
> The Pustules /might/ wear off, or they might not, both
> are possible. Though admittedly with our limited 
> information, we have seen no clear sign that they
> are wearing off, but as I said, the story isn't 
> over yet, and we have no clear sign that they are not
> wearing off.

wynnleaf
Let's put it this way.  We have no sign at all that they are wearing
off.  We have the mention of Marietta trying to cover up the pustules
in HBP  which shows us that they are certainly still there, and bad
enough to still be considered disfiguring, at the very least by Marietta.

> > wynnleaf:
> > 2.  Marietta has to "do something," ...
> > 
> bboyminn:
> Again, a speculative possibility driven by our LACK
> of information. Following a speculative path of logic,
> Marietta DID some thing to cause the acne, perhaps
> some redeeming act will undo them. The 'redeeming 
> act' doesn't necessarily have to be a heroic death,
> maybe an apology would do. It is a fair speculation,
> yet, it is speculation and never represented as 
> more.

wynnleaf
One might as well speculate that there's a specialist on the other
side of the world that's currently on his/her way to Hogwarts and will
cure Marietta in December during HBP, but we just never heard about
it.  In other words, speculation utterly without canon can be just as
wild as one wants.  I am not persuaded that speculation without any
canon support at all is particularly helpful in trying to decipher
Hermione's actions, especially with canon support that seems to
indicate other alternatives.
> 
> > wynnleaf:
> > 3.  The hex is really just acne.  Another distortion 
> > of the clear point in canon that her face was "horribly
> > disfigured."  ...
> > 
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> She is 'horribly disfigured' based on the INITIAL 
> reaction of a teenage boy who is already in a very
> stressful situation, and it is just acne. 

wynnleaf
Where in canon are we told "it is just acne?"  I can find nothing in
canon that tells us that it's even *any* kind of acne.  Acne is "a
chronic disorder of the hair follicles and sebaceous glands."  I don't
think there's the slightest bit of canon that tells us that Marietta's
pustules are acne.  Many assume it is, but that's mere speculation
without canon backup.  One might as well speculate that it's an
extended case of chicken pox, or worse, measles.

bboyminn
 What 'horribly disfigures' her
> is the fact that the acne has taken on a specific
> shape and form, and spells out an unpleasant word on
> her face. 

wynnleaf
And where in canon are we told that the horribly disfiguring pustules
are only horribly disfiguring because of the word?  

Hm, how do you know it's acne?  I would like to know what leads anyone
to believe this, as opposed to, for instance, one of the alternatives
I listed above.  And why must it be a Real Life ailment at all?

> bboyminn:
> Again, a valid speculative possibility drive by the
> fact that we have so LITTLE information on the matter.
> Not a speculation that I'm particularly fond of, but
> it is presented as a possibility not as a fact.

wynnleaf
I have no problem with speculation and I am not criticizing the fact
that we all speculate.  I certainly think speculating on hints in
canon is interesting.  The problem is that we *do* have canon on
Marietta, and in this case much of the speculation is aimed at
explaining why what appears in the *canon* hints really isn't as bad
as it seems.  So the fact that the pustules are described as "horribly
disfiguring" gets speculated away into only being a bad case of acne,
even though canon doesn't tell us that it's acne.  The fact that the
hex is still evident in HBP gets toned down by speculation of the hex
being better and gradually going away during HBP, even though nothing
in canon says that the hex is any better.

> bboyminn:
> 
> We have a current on-going and annoying disfiguring hex
> on a girl who /may/ not recall why it happened. We know
> Marietta's memory was modified, but we don't know the
> details. Did the memory charm make her forget the event,
> or merely forget her motivation? 

wynnleaf
In The Centaur and The Sneak, Umbridge asks Marietta a series of
questions to which Marietta's answer is a negative shake of her head
(Marietta being afraid to speak due to the pustule hex).  She'd been
asked to shake her head or nod for no and yes answers to questions.

Umbridge asked Marietta "how long these meetings have been going on"
and "have they been happening regularly over the last six months?"  

Answer: negative shake of her head.  Marietta doesn't think these
meetings have been going on regularly for the last six months.

Umbridge asks, "I'm asking whether you've been going to these meetings
for the past six months?"  

Answer:  negative shake of her head.  Marietta thinks she hasn't been
going to the meetings.

McGonagall asks, "There have been no secret meetings for the past six
months.  Is that correct, Miss Edgecombe?"

Answer:  positive nod.  Marietta believes no such meetings have occurred.

We learn a bit later that Marietta had her memory "modified" by
Shacklebolt.  Since I can't find any canon that supports the oft
speculated theory that people can regain their memories after having
memories obliviated, and since we do seem to have plenty of canon that
people *don't* regain their memories, I think it's a fairly safe canon
-based speculation that Marietta doesn't remember the six months of
meetings and in fact believes that there have been *no* such meetings.
 That being the case, she certainly doesn't recall signing up for the
meetings, nor ratting on the DA to Umbridge.

Of course, if someone can supply some canon evidence that people do
fairly quickly regain their memories after they've been magically
altered, then that gives us some canon support for the notion that
Marietta now has something for which she can remember and be contrite.

>  bboyminn
> Again, all the speculation is driven by the fact that
> we have so few details. Harry's initial reaction under
> stress may not (or may) be the best indicator of the
> events in proper perspective. To see Marietta that way
> was certainly a shock to both Harry and Marietta, but
> we don't know that Harry initial reaction and shock are
> a true reflection of reality in perspective.
> 
wynnleaf
With the few canon details we have, it seems more probable that the
details we've got are more accurate than the speculation that lacks
any canon support at all (that have *no* details to support it, rather
than a few).  

> bboyminn:
> 
> The story isn't over yet, so I'm reserving judgment on
> Hermione until I see what she does in the final book.

wynnleaf
I, too, will be interested to see what JKR does in book 7.  I tend to
think she sets up later plot twists with earlier details.  The more
obvious the "facts" of the early details, the greater possibility
she'll overturn them.  The less obvious the facts, the more likelihood
that she's setting a stage of real evidence.  Just my opinion of course.

>  bboyminn
> Also, on this issue and on all other hotly debated issues,
> I refuse to be more upset about it than the characters
> themselves. Using Harry and Snape for example, many
> fans are incensed that Harry doesn't apologies to Snape,
> or that Snape doesn't apologies to Harry. Yet neither
> Harry or Snape seem to feel an apology needs to be
> offered or demanded. If they don't care, why should I?

> Marietta is certainly angry, and Hermoine is certainly
> angry. Some readers feel Marietta should beg Hermione's
> forgiveness, other feel Hermione should beg Marietta's
> forgiveness. Yet, I don't see either one of them  
> offering or demanding that apology. 

wynnleaf
The problem here is that we can only see inside Harry's head, and we
only see things from his perspective.  Just because Harry doesn't know
about Snape's opinion of an apology (or anything else) means little to
nothing as regards what Snape actually thinks.  Most people who are
furious at someone over an intentional bad action, are only more
furious if the other person doesn't acknowledge that they did anything
wrong.  We don't have to "hear" Snape ask for an apology to realize
that the lack of one from Harry is only going to make Snape more angry
at him.  And Snape doesn't have to *want* an apology for Harry to owe
one.  And vice versa in some cases for things Snape has done to Harry.

As regards Hermione and Marietta, without seeing inside their heads,
we can only go on what Harry sees and hears.  Through his eyes, we
don't see any concern on Hermione's part for Marietta.  And yet since
we are shown other instances of Hermione's concern for injured
students -- for instance Montague -- the lack of a scene showing
concern for Marietta is notable.  Of course, one might imagine that
JKR is thinking "I'm going to mislead my readers into being upset at
Hermione for not caring about what happened to Marietta, only to show
them later that Hermione was really concerned for Marietta all along."
 If JKR thought that, she miscalculated because I don't see many
readers worried about Hermione's lack of concern, or even noticing it.
 So it seems more likely that JKR leaves out showing us Hermione's
concern because Hermione really *wasn't* concerned.  But that doesn't
mean she *shouldn't* have been concerned.  It's obvious that Marietta
was concerned about her own predicament.

wynnleaf, who loves speculation, but believes that speculation without
canon support is not particularly persuasive, especially when there is
canon which seems to support an alternative view.