What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169382

Hickengruendler:
> 
> That might very well be true, but given that Peter was a spy, it 
> makes perfect sense for Voldemort to keep his identity as secret as 
> possible. I would be surprised, if the majority of Death Eaters 
> knew, who the spy in the Order was, simply because it makes sense 
> for Voldemort not to tell anyone. Sure, a few obviously knew, but 
> Snape doesn't have to be among them. And there's also Karkaroff's 
> statement during his trial, that no Death Eater knew all the other 
> ones. And this was at a time, where Karkaroff was willing to sell 
> ot anyone for his freedom. And again, if Dumbledore kept the DE's 
> identities a secret from most others, it would make particularly 
> sense to do this with a spy. The fact, that a few DE's knew the 
> truth, doesn't change this.
<snip>


Dana:
I have been thinking about this and I know people already stated that 
Karkaroff said LV kept the identity of his DEs hidden but there is 
one problem I still have with this. And that is the Graveyard scene 
in GoF. The DEs come in and they take a specific place in the circle, 
they form around LV, leaving gaps that should contain DEs that are 
missing, like they were expecting more still to come. Of course one 
could state that people were just told were to stand without knowing 
the identity of the people standing next to them but to me this still 
gives a problem. If there is a specific place for each DE to stand, 
this indicates to me that LV had these meetings often with all his 
DEs present because why else dedicate specific places to each DE if 
they never met in this way before or just once, how would they even 
know where to stand after 13 years if they only met like this once or 
never had before or how would they know how much room to leave 
between them and the next person if they did not know how many people 
actually where DEs. 

Wormtail after receiving his new hand goes to his own place in the 
circle too. 

GoF pg 564 UKed Paperback Chapter "The Death Eater"

Wormtail stood up and took his place in the circle staring at his 
powerful new hand, his face still shining with tears.  

Voldemort now approached the man on Wormtail's right. 

`Lucius, my slippery friend,' he whispered,' 

End quote from canon. 

One could say that Wormtail just took a place at the end of the 
circle but there is again a problem. It was not half a circle, the DE 
enclosed Tom Riddle Sr's grave and left gaps were other people 
normally stood (as LV indicates when he mentions who is missing that 
should have been where the gap was), we do not hear Lucius or any one 
moving over to make place for Wormtail or that Wormtail looked around 
to decide where he was going to stand. It is specifically stated that 
he took HIS place in the circle and not A place in the circle. And if 
Wormtail is on Lucius left then this indicates that LV moved from 
left to right when he did his rounds. 

If I'm assuming correctly then Lucius actually stood alone because on 
both sides there were gaps where people ought to have been. On Lucius 
right stood the Lestrange (as Wormtail stood on his left) as it is 
specifically stated that the place they should have been, separated 
Lucius from the next man (pg 564). LV stops with his rounds after 
mentioning the 6 missing DEs, there is no mention of skipping people 
after this gap. But even if it does then it is still strange that 
Wormtail took a place next to Lucius if he did not have his own place 
already because he could have taken a place anywhere where there was 
a gap but it is specifically stated that Wormtail stood next to 
Lucius no mention of any space between them. We know the identity of 
5 of the missing DEs in the gap of 6. Rosier being dead (mentioned 
both by Sirius and Karkaroff), Wilkens being dead (mentioned by 
Sirius), Karkaroff, Snape and Barthy Crouch Jr. The last dead DE is 
never mentioned by anyone.  

We see in the pensieve that the Lestrange are connected to Barthy 
Crouch Jr. We also know they are connected to Lucius, not only 
because they stood next to him but because Bella and Narcissa are 
sisters and Sirius connects Snape to the Lestrange but also to Rosier 
and Wilkens who he mentions both are dead and to Avery as all being 
part of the gang of Slytherin's and all being DEs. We also hear 
Sirius connect Snape to Lucius and him confirming this by mentioning 
to Sirius that Lucius recognized him on the platform. We also see 
that Karkaroff knows Snape. So if Wormtail is connected to Lucius as 
well, as his place in the circle seems to indicate, then to me it is 
very hard to believe that Snape 1) could not have recognized Wormtail 
during these kinds of meetings, because they were standing very close 
to one another 2) would not have known Wormtail was working for 
Voldemort through Lucius. 3) Indeed not have known Sirius was not a 
DE even if he could still have betrayed the Potters just that one 
time. 

To me Karkaroff statement about LV keeping the identity of his DEs a 
secret becomes less plausible by these specific actions of DEs 
swooping into the scene after LV's rise. There are a few reasons 1) 
Karkaroff mentions Rookwood, who is not a DE but a MoM employee 
working as a spy for LV, this identity should not be known to 
Karkaroff. 2) Karkaroff like Sirius would know which people were set 
free and he is trying to get out himself, if he gives their names and 
the MoM does not put them in Azkaban then Karkaroff will not have 
time to enjoy his newly earned freedom. Former DEs will not risk 
their own freedom on behave of someone else but they will surely act 
on someone risking their own. 

So Karkaroff actually stating that LV kept the identity of his DEs a 
secret seems to be a hollow phrase that he seems to state only to 
protect himself from revealing information about people that could 
harm him. 
What I do believe LV kept secret from his DEs, is what each specific 
DE is doing on LV's orders. For instance Bella specifically asks 
Snape where he was, indicating to me that Bella knew Snape was a DE 
at the time of LV's down fall but did not know LV's orders for Snape. 

There is also another problem. Who recruited Wormtail? LV would not 
have gone to Peter himself as he never does his own dirty work and 
Wormtail could never have gotten to LV if he did not have anyone to 
tell him were he could find him. I do not believe LV was listed in 
the phone book. And Wormtail being a coward would actually never have 
gone to LV himself, so I do believe someone brought him to LV and 
this means someone specifically knew who Wormtail was and what 
information he could deliver to LV. And if we assume it was Lucius 
then I do not for one moment believe Snape would not have heard about 
the same rumors Sirius heard in Azkaban, because Lucius would have 
told him.  

I do believe Snape knew Peter was a spy in the Order working for LV, 
that doesn't mean that he knew that Peter was the SK by definition. 
We do see that Snape keeps information from DD in OotP about LV's 
plans and yes, I do believe Snape was in the know if he wasn't from 
LV directly then he was in the know through Lucius because I do 
believe that Lucius would use his contact at Hogwarts to get him the 
necessary information to perform his task. Lucius had a lot riding on 
the success of the raid after LV found out about the destruction of 
the diary and therefore he would use any means available to him and 
Snape is one of them. 

So to me it is not a lot to assume that Snape kept the information 
about Peter being the spy from DD because this information could only 
have come from Snape and therefore it would have been to great a risk 
for Snape to reveal. In PoA it was specifically implied that DD did 
not know who the spy was but from what we hear from both Sirius and 
Lupin, he did tell the Potters he believed there was one and why they 
all did what they did and I do not for one second believe that DD 
would allow Peter to go on spying on the Potters and putting them at 
risk because before the charm was in place, information about the 
Potters whereabouts put them in direct risk. Snape might have 
mentioned there being a spy but not reveal the identity of him but to 
me it seems not likely that Snape did not know who it was.   

There are two senario's possible in my opinion. 

1) Snape did know about the rumors that it was Peter leading LV to 
the Potters causing his downfall that night and actually his 
connection to Lucius makes it highly unlikely he didn't. And Peter 
could only have provided LV this information if he also was the SK. 
So he could still blame Sirius for convincing the Potters to change 
to Peter and his remark in the shack would still have the same 
meaning. Because indeed it could have been Snape's information about 
there being a spy that led to DD suggesting they use the Fidelius 
Charm and then the Potters give the SK job to the spy, Snape was 
trying to protect them from in the first place. 

2) Snape did not know about the rumors but did know Peter was working 
for LV but never told this information because Peter could not give 
LV the information of the Potters location after the charm was in 
place and Snape thought he therefore could withhold this information 
safely and revealing it would risk him his cover. So he could indeed 
have believed Sirius was the SK and betrayed the Potters, even if he 
could have known Sirus was not a loyal DE. 

To be honest the second scenario seems much more unlikely to me 
because for instance Bella is directly told Snape did not show up at 
the Graveyard while she was still in Azkaban at the time, it seems to 
me that rumors in the DEs reach far and therefore I can't believe 
that Snape through his contact with Lucius never before heard that it 
was Peter that caused LV's downfall, especially if it was Lucius that 
brought Peter to LV. He certainly would want as many DEs to know that 
it wasn't him who caused LV's downfall and that would include Snape 
(Snape was still believe to be on LV's side only him staying with DD 
after LV's downfall let to the rumors Snape was in DD's pocket). 

But to me another scenario of who gave Peter to LV is possible and I 
do believe that to be Snape and why JKR put Peter in Snape's house in 
HBP. Why if Snape believed that all Marauders were in on the Prank 
does he tolerate Peter in his house if there wasn't already a 
connection between them? And why does he try to get Sirius and Lupin 
to pay with their lives for their involvement in the Prank? IF there 
was no connection between Snape and Peter and if he believed Sirius 
was lying in PoA then he surely must feel guilty about his treatment 
of Sirius but yet he goes on to proudly claim to have helped in the 
disposal of Black, something that like Jen already stated before puts 
his entire cover of sending the Order at risk and he could have left 
out because it adds nothing to convince Bella of anything.  How can 
he not forgive Lupin and Sirius but lets Peter live with him in his 
house? And LV putting him there makes no sense because Snape will not 
be home for most of the year anyway, so it rather seems that Snape 
offered him a place to stay. 

This leads me several possible conclusions for Snape's actions during 
PoA. He already knows Sirius is innocent of betraying the Potters and 
that he would want to try to talk to Harry to explain himself and he 
considers Lupin a serious risk of exposure of the truth and why he 
tries to get ride of him throughout the year and it would give a far 
more fitting reason to me of why Snape believed Lupin would try to 
help Sirius and without Peter's testimony it will be impossible for 
Sirius to proof his innocence. 

Peter not being alive to proof anything doesn't mean that Sirius 
talking to DD could seriously harm Snape's cover with DD and as we 
see DD does believe Sirius's story before he talks to Harry. Snape 
wanting Sirius soul sucked therefore to me could have been motivated 
by three things; wanting to keep the truth hidden and at the same 
time making Sirius pay for trying to kill him and causing him to have 
a debt to his enemy which caused Snape to be in this predicament in 
the first place and third punish Sirius for messing up his chance to 
make it even with James and releasing him from that annoying debt.
  
To me Snape telling Harry that he should have let him die is a hollow 
remark for the simple fact that I do not believe Snape being so 
stupid to think Lupin would take the time to tell Harry his story and 
explain himself or who Sirius is and their relation to his father if 
he is going to kill him right after it or even that Harry not being 
dead already when he arrives. To me it is just an attempt to muddy 
the waters in Harry's mind about putting his trust in Black and 
believing his story just like his father. 

I do not for one minute believe Snape was motivated because Sirius 
killed 12 muggles because Snape never sells out his DE friends to the 
MoM, while they had done far worse things then Sirius did, even if 
Snape believed Sirius to be responsible. If Snape truly was defected 
and believed in the wrongs of LV's ways because of the killings of 
innocent people then his friends should be punished for their 
involvement in these killings but Snape never rats on his friends.  

Snape trying so hard in GoF to make DD aware of LV's rise in power 
might just have been an attempt of Snape to secure his place with DD 
if a word comes to his ear that LV will not be going to forgive Snape 
for delivering him an incomplete prophecy that led him to his down 
fall and him trying to make Fudge see that LV was indeed back might 
have been for the specific reason that he knew that DD's ability to 
secure Snape's safety would be at risk if he did not have the MoM 
behind him. 

So to me canon still provides enough evidence to support ESE or OFH 
Snape as much as people want to read these same actions as him being 
DDM and actually HBP and Snape killing DD actually puts a big strain 
on the DDM version of Snape because canon at this moment does not 
support a DD involvement in Snape's actions of killing him. 

And to quote JKR "I think that if you are discussing evil, you really 
need to bring home what a terrible thing it is to murder someone."

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1998/1298-sundaytimes-nicol.html

So DD asking Snape would actually be even worse because DD would ask 
Snape to do an evil deed and this while DD is such a big supporter of 
fighting evil with love and not fighting evil with evil. 

JMHO

Dana