What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[hickengruendler]

No: HPFGUIDX 169385

 
> Dana:
> I have been thinking about this and I know people already stated 
that 
> Karkaroff said LV kept the identity of his DEs hidden but there is 
> one problem I still have with this. And that is the Graveyard scene 
> in GoF. The DEs come in and they take a specific place in the 
circle, 
> they form around LV, leaving gaps that should contain DEs that are 
> missing, like they were expecting more still to come. Of course one 
> could state that people were just told were to stand without 
knowing 
> the identity of the people standing next to them but to me this 
still 
> gives a problem. If there is a specific place for each DE to stand, 
> this indicates to me that LV had these meetings often with all his 
> DEs present because why else dedicate specific places to each DE if 
> they never met in this way before or just once, how would they even 
> know where to stand after 13 years if they only met like this once 
or 
> never had before or how would they know how much room to leave 
> between them and the next person if they did not know how many 
people 
> actually where DEs. 

Hickengruendler:

That's probably true. But knowing how many they are, does not 
necessarily mean, that they also know who else is behind the masks. 
And at least during the end of the First War, it seems rather 
unlikely that *Snape* was at every meeting, since he was in Hogwarts 
and could hardly disappear there whenever he wanted. Granted, he 
could probably leave the castle to Voldemort often enough, since he 
went there on Dumbledore's orders (no matter to whom he's really 
loyal), but it's still doubtful that Snape can leave the castle 
during all of the meetings. (If these meetings happened often, of 
course, and if not, than there's even less a chance for Snape and 
Peter to meet.)
 
Dana:

> If I'm assuming correctly then Lucius actually stood alone because 
on 
> both sides there were gaps where people ought to have been. On 
Lucius 
> right stood the Lestrange (as Wormtail stood on his left) as it is 
> specifically stated that the place they should have been, separated 
> Lucius from the next man (pg 564). LV stops with his rounds after 
> mentioning the 6 missing DEs, there is no mention of skipping 
people 
> after this gap. But even if it does then it is still strange that 
> Wormtail took a place next to Lucius if he did not have his own 
place 
> already because he could have taken a place anywhere where there 
was 
> a gap but it is specifically stated that Wormtail stood next to 
> Lucius no mention of any space between them. 

Hickengruendler:

Well, yeah, but so what. First of all, Lucius is not Snape. While it 
does seem, that the Malfoys trust Snape, I don't see why they should 
talk to him about anything. So even if Lucius knew, that doesn't mean 
Snape did as well. And second, how well did Lucius know Wormtail 
during the First War? he was a few years older than the Marauders. 
Why should he recognise James Potter's friend Peter as the masked 
Death Eater besides him.   

Dana:

So if Wormtail is connected to Lucius as 
> well, as his place in the circle seems to indicate, then to me it 
is 
> very hard to believe that Snape 1) could not have recognized 
Wormtail 
> during these kinds of meetings, because they were standing very 
close 
> to one another 2) would not have known Wormtail was working for 
> Voldemort through Lucius. 3) Indeed not have known Sirius was not a 
> DE even if he could still have betrayed the Potters just that one 
> time. 

Hickengruendler:

That's a very big assumption. So Wormtail was standing next to 
Lucius. That doesn't mean they were connected. There is in six books 
no evidence, that Lucius and Wormtail are connected, except that they 
are both Death eaters. And anyway, as you quoted, Snape did not stand 
next to Wormtail or even Lucius. The Lestranges were between them, 
which makes three places, since there's also Bellatrix' brother in-
law. Meaning Snape did not stand all that close to Wormtail.  

Dana:

> To me Karkaroff statement about LV keeping the identity of his DEs 
a 
> secret becomes less plausible by these specific actions of DEs 
> swooping into the scene after LV's rise. There are a few reasons 1) 
> Karkaroff mentions Rookwood, who is not a DE but a MoM employee 
> working as a spy for LV, this identity should not be known to 
> Karkaroff. 2) Karkaroff like Sirius would know which people were 
set 
> free and he is trying to get out himself, if he gives their names 
and 
> the MoM does not put them in Azkaban then Karkaroff will not have 
> time to enjoy his newly earned freedom. Former DEs will not risk 
> their own freedom on behave of someone else but they will surely 
act 
> on someone risking their own. 

Hickengruendler:

According to the fake Moody in GoF, Karkaroff fled because he 
betrayed too many fellow Death Eaters and couldn't be sure to be 
accepted back. And as it turns out, he was right. if he lied to 
protect himself, it didn't work, did it?

 
Dana:

> There is also another problem. Who recruited Wormtail? LV would not 
> have gone to Peter himself as he never does his own dirty work and 
> Wormtail could never have gotten to LV if he did not have anyone to 
> tell him were he could find him. 

Hickengruendler:

I think Wormtail was a special case. If the timeline giben by Sirius 
in PoA is correct, he was recruited after Trelawney made the prophecy 
and after Harry was born. That means Voldemort probably already 
targeted the Potters and searched for the weakest link among the 
Potters and their friends, which he found in Wormtail. In this case, 
I don't see why he shouldn't have "visited" Wormtail himself. The 
Potters certainly were important enough to him. 

Dana:

I do not believe LV was listed in 
> the phone book. And Wormtail being a coward would actually never 
have 
> gone to LV himself, so I do believe someone brought him to LV and 
> this means someone specifically knew who Wormtail was and what 
> information he could deliver to LV. And if we assume it was Lucius 
> then I do not for one moment believe Snape would not have heard 
about 
> the same rumors Sirius heard in Azkaban, because Lucius would have 
> told him. 

Hickengruendler:

But I do not assume at all, that it was Lucius. Why should Lucius 
know anything about Wormtail? If you believe in evil Snape, I am 
willing to consider, that evil Severus himself told Voldemort, who 
was the weakest link among James' friends. But Lucius? So far, we 
don't even know of any intercation between these two characters. You 
could just as well have proposed to me, that it was Barty Crouch 
junior, who recruited Peter. Seems as likely, or rather unlikely, to 
me, as that it was Lucius.
 
Dana:
 
> We do see that Snape keeps information from DD in OotP about LV's 
> plans and yes, I do believe Snape was in the know if he wasn't from 
> LV directly then he was in the know through Lucius because I do 
> believe that Lucius would use his contact at Hogwarts to get him 
the 
> necessary information to perform his task. 

Hickengruendler:

Where in OotP does Snape keep informations from Dumbledore? And which 
task are you talking about? As far as I know, the only task Snape 
performed in OotP was alerting the Order about Harry's vision. And 
even if you think, that Snape waited extra long to do it, so that the 
Death Eaters have more time to finish Harry off, I don't know, what 
this has to do with Lucius. Lucius couldn't have known what happened 
in Hogwarts, so what exactly should he have told Snape? And for that 
matter, how? You are talking about Malfoy's contact at Hogwarts, but 
what contact does he have, other than Draco? And if you remember, 
Draco along with the Inquisitorial Squad and Umbridge did everything 
to *stop* Harry from going to the ministry. Given his reaction, he 
even seemed to have believed Hermione's lie about the weapon. So it 
doesn't seem, that Draco knew anything. Also, why should Voldemort or 
Lucius have told Snape anything? What does this have to do with him? 
Snape was in Hogwarts, and all the Death Eaters would have done in 
telling him, is risking that someone else found out. Besides, 
Voldemort wanted to kill Snape directly after Voldie's return to 
power. Snape convinced him otherwise, but that doesn't mean, Voldie 
didn't have any doubts anymore, as proven by Wormtail living with 
Snape in HBP and listening on his conversations (no doubt on 
Voldemort's orders, since it was mentioned that Voldemort wanted 
Peter to be around Snape).