JKR's intent

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 178799

> >>Prep0strus:
> > <snip>
> > The assumption of star athletes being male is one that comes from 
> > the real world.  People are bringing their biases with them into 
> > the story. Slytherins are created by JKR. 

> >>Pippin:
> The argument I've heard is  that if  JKR wanted us  to think the    
> Slytherins were moral, she'd have made them more sympathetic. That 
> is a real world assumption about characters in fiction.

Betsy Hp:
IMO, if JKR wanted the Slytherins to be moral, she'd have written 
them as moral.  So again, it's what JKR provided not what the reader 
brought to the table.  Weirdly enough, my problem was that I found 
the Slytherin's too sympathetic to believe they were supposed to be 
the immoral bad guys. 

So, to play off your example, it's like I assumed the quidditch 
player named Robin was a woman, and argued that of course women could 
play quidditch and look at all the RL woman athletes.  Only in the 
end, Robin was a man and all my arguments were moot. 
 
> >>Adam: 
> > If JKR wanted to show Slytherins as equal to other members of    
> > society, or even as a morally neutral group, yes, she failed.    
> > The fact that we have this discussion supports the failure.

> >>Pippin:
> If she wanted to show that it's easy to overlook virtue when it's   
> not presented in a sympathetic light, she succeeded. Harry's story 
> itself is ample demonstration of that.

Betsy Hp:
Why?  Because readers couldn't see any virtue in Harry?  That 
confuses me.  I'd guess Snape as the non-sympathetic holder of hidden 
virtue.  Which he almost, sort of, was. If you squinted.  It seemed 
more to me that he was broken by the guilt of what his naturally bad 
self (ie Slytherin) did and then followed the orders of Dumbledore 
(the virtue of Gryffindor) in an attempt to atone.  Which, going by 
his not being present with the blessed dead, didn't really work.  
Though Harry admired his pluck in the end.

> >>Pippin:
> If you prefer to see the Slytherins as a confusing exception rather 
> than a subtle proof, it's okay by me <g> 
> If Regulus sacrificing his life for his House Elf, Slughorn        
> duelling with Voldemort, and Snape keeping his cover to the death   
> are not proof of good Slytherins, I have to say you're setting the 
> bar for being a good Slytherin awfully high. I sure haven't done   
> anything like that, and I'd like to think I'm a good person.

Betsy Hp:
The bar was set by JKR.  And Slughorn, Snape and Regulus didn't push 
their house up high enough to reach.  So no banner in the RoR and 
Slytherins banned from taking part on the good side in the final 
battle.  And Regulus wasn't among the blessed dead either that I 
recall. 

> >>Pippin:
> Did Shakespeare fail as a writer because it took a few hundred
> years for people to notice that those vulgar entertainments he
> wrote to make money were also literary works of subtlety and
> power?

Betsy Hp:
No.  Because subtlety wasn't all he had.  No one had to parse his 
play to bits to figure out Romeo had fallen in love with Juliet. <g>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > What text shows that McGonagalls read of the Slytherins was wrong?

> >>Pippin:
> The text that shows them not doing what she said they would do,
> sabotage the resistance or take arms against the defenders.

Betsy Hp:
Um... because she kicked them out before they could sabotage. Except 
for...

> >>Pippin:
> Three stay behind to go after Harry, but that does not affect
> the defense of the castle at all.

Betsy Hp:
Because they failed to nab Harry, which, considering that a big part 
of the defense of the castle was to keep Harry safe ("Give me Harry 
Potter...") their actions could be defined as both sabotage and 
taking up arms against the defenders.

> >>Pippin:
> And despite what Voldemort says, we don't see any Slytherins who   
> left the castle on his side.

Betsy Hp:
Well, they're not all that brave, are they? <g>

> >>Pippin:
> Lucius was a member of the Hogwarts board of governors until the
> end of CoS. He had enough influence to get Dumbledore suspended.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Only *after* several students were brutally attacked and nearly 
killed and no progress was made in finding the culprit.  And the 
suspension didn't last, and IIRC, Lucius lost a lot of political 
power with that play.  (Didn't he get kicked off the board?)  So it's 
not like Lucius was displaying an awesome amount of power there.

> >>Pippin:
> Oh. Oh, no. *Now* I get it. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I
> think I finally see what you're getting at. Yeah, if I squint and   
> look at it in a funny way, there's this weird, broken limping quest 
> story that either didn't end or ended all wrong. 
> <snip of an example of another weird and wrong quest journey>

Betsy Hp:
I totally agree that the Potter series is not what I'd call a 
successful hero's journey.  For one, Harry doesn't learn anything, 
and for another, nothing changes, IMO.  (A brilliantly happy ending 
and an inhumanly perfect mentor isn't a part of the quest journey 
either.  I think you were thinking romantic comedy, maybe?)

But I think JKR would say that's what she was writing.  I think she'd 
say Harry learned about death, and I think she'd say that he changed 
the world by defeating Voldemort and putting Slytherin in its place.  
And then she'd burble on about "realism" and how mean people suck 
(Slytherin) but you can't get rid of them and that's why they still 
exist at Hogwarts.  But they're safely diluted now, so all is well.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> House Elves will be freed when the House Elves want freedom, and    
> when wizards realize what a burden their mastery is. The Houses    
> will unite when the children want unity, and when the adults realize
> what a burden their discord is.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But that is a tale for another time, about another hero, to be told 
by a different bard.  Harry's story is done and he is at rest. <g>  
IOWs, it sounds like a story worth reading, but it's not the one told 
in the Potter series.  It's not a story JKR was interested in 
telling.  So she didn't.

Betsy Hp