Slytherin as villains / Ender vs. Harry SPOILERS for Ender's Game

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 178961

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > And all of Slytherin left and joined with Voldemort.
> > 
> > "If your son is dead Lucius, it is not my fault.  He did not come
> > and join with me, LIKE THE REST OF THE SLYTHERINS." [DH scholastic
> > p.641 - emphasis mine]
> > 
> > Apparently Voldemort did a head count.  Apparently he had heads to
> > count. <snip>

> >>Carol responds;
> Yes, Voldemort makes this claim, but he's tormenting Lucius, whose 
> son is a DE and ought, according to Voldemort, to be fighting for   
> his cause. Do you really think that LV knew every Slytherin in     
> Hogwarts by sight and took a head count, some seventy students in  
> all if we assume ten students per year per House? 
> <snip>


> >>Katie Spilman:
> We know Voldemort is lying because he says, "He did not come and   
> join with me, LIKE THE REST OF THE SLYTHERINS" when we know that   
> Crabbe and Goyle did not join him either. Therefore, we can be     
> certain that this is a lie.


> >>Pippin:
> And Voldemort never lies <g>
> Voldemort says whatever he thinks will hurt most, be it true or
> false, in this case that the other Slytherins are safe because
> they have joined him.
> But Voldemort must be lying or mistaken, because Slughorn returns
> with an army of townspeople. He couldn't have done that if he and   
> his students were in the custody of the DE's.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ah.  So we'll just ignore the fact that we learned this apparently 
false fact while Harry was in Voldemort's head and feeling his 
emotions?  I'm afraid I find this idea... weak. <g>  Especially since 
Harry isn't shocked (shocked!) at the news that the Slytherins joined 
with Voldemort.  I would think that if Voldemort were lying to 
torment Lucius, Harry would pick it up.  I'd also think that if the 
Slytherin's joining Voldemort was such an out of character move, 
Harry would have mentioned it to Ron and Hermione.  He doesn't.

> >>Carol:
> <snip> 
> You're taking Voldemort at his word in the absence of any other
> evidence.

Betsy Hp:
I'm actually giving Harry the benefit of the doubt.

> >>Carol:
> <snip> 
> If you can present some evidence other than Voldemort's word for   
> your view, I'll reconsider mine.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Harry not hearing a lie, and Harry not being shocked at the news.  
Seriously, JKR doesn't like Slytherin.  They're her bad guy house.  
Why are you fighting this? (I'm curious about it actually.  Because 
it's odd to have people who didn't care much for Slytherin suddenly 
(IMO) fighting up stream to show their support for them all of a 
sudden.)

> >>Carol: 
> BTW, Voldemort tells at least one other lie in the final chapters,
> that Snape desired rather than loved Lily.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
How do you know Voldemort's lying?  This could be what he honestly 
believes, especially since he's not really up on what love is and 
feels like anyway.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> And we find, in the epilogue, that it has not been forgotten.
> The courage of Slytherin House played its part, because courage is
> a *mainstream* value in the Potterverse. That's the end of the
> story.

Betsy Hp:
Ooh, sorry Pippin, the Hat disagrees. <g>  Courage is a *Gryffindor* 
value.  That's Gryffindor.  The house Snape was *almost* good enough 
for in the end. <rbg>

> >>Pippin:
> Erm... Do you have any experience with kids? They'll say
> anything to be provoking. "James, give it a rest!" is Ginny's
> reaction.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And they know how far to push.  I'm betting James doesn't run around 
saying "fuck".  He also emphasizes that he was only saying Al "might" 
get into Slytherin.  So to me it's not the negativeness about 
Slytherin that's pissed off his mom, it's James saying that Al will 
end up there.  ("I only said *might*!" reminds James. <g>)

> >>Pippin:
> Where's the evidence that Regulus wanted to be a bad kid?
> Slughorn doesn't want bad kids in his club, for one thing.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Since a keystone for being bad is being a bigot in this series, I'd 
say the evidence was all over his home, and from his brother's 
mouth.  And Slughorn doesn't care if you're a bigot or not (see 
Blaise).  So in that sense he doesn't care about good or bad, just 
don't rock the boat.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> Young Regulus's reasons for joining Voldemort aren't any
> different than Harry's reasons for wanting to join the Order. He
> admires their leader, he wants to purify the WW of evil influences,
> and he knows it's what his parents would expect of him.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I totally agree that JKR fell down in showing much difference between 
her good guys and her bad guys.  It all came down to which cult of 
personality you signed up for.  However, I don't think *she* thinks 
that.  So I think you have to look at what JKR recognizes as 
bigotry.  If the group seems against Muggleborns, than they're the 
baddies.  And that's just about as deep as it goes.  Which is why 
Harry never explores the rift.  (Though of course the other reason is 
that JKR didn't think this was a rift that needed healing, IMO.) 

> >>zgirnius:
> Well, I do agree "Bad parents means bad children" is a message of   
> the books. (I thought it was also the message of modern sociological
> research, but it is not an area I know much about.) I just think   
> that we are looking at the causality differently.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
So judging an eleven year old is the way to go?  It's not my personal 
belief system, and frankly it's an idea that repulses me.  But it's 
what JKR wanted to do and it's her books so she did it.  It just 
means that her message became a little muddled, because it's not that 
the purebloods were *wrong* about judging a child's worth by their 
bloodlines, it's that they were looking at the wrong factors.  What 
they needed was someone with a good breeding eye, like Aunt Marge. 
<beg>

> >>zgirnius:
> I object to 'girls acting like girls'. I always acted like a girl.
> (By definition, it is what I was). I am not at all sure, based on   
> pre-DH discussion of this topic, that you would agree, possibly a   
> reason this would affect us differently.

Betsy Hp:
I totally agree that a girl can express herself however she chooses 
and that's a good thing.  JKR seemed to me, though, to disagree.  A 
girl who prefers the company of other girls and likes to giggle about 
boys is lesser than a girl who both hangs with boys but also disdains 
them (for their attraction to girls, I think).  It's that "lesser 
than" bit that pinged my "doesn't like women" radar.  It struck me as 
being very picky about what makes a "good" girl.

> >>zgirnius:
> Oh, so it is only heroic if it works? Firefighters who died in the
> Twin Towers on 9/11 without bringing anyone out of the towers
> successfully are not hugely heroic?
> All I'm asking for is 'brave' and 'good', though.

Betsy Hp:
Yes, of course, I've always thought the 9/11 firefighters were big 
nelly cowards.  (That's sarcasm, folks, no letters please.)  Of 
*course* I thought Draco showed some grit in looking after his 
friends.  I just don't think it was enough (especially for JKR) to 
overcome why he was there in the first place (to get Harry for 
Voldemort) or the fact that he screamed and screamed the whole time.  
When JKR has a character acting like a girl she's generally not doing 
it as a good thing.  And throughout the scene JKR painted Draco as an 
emotional girl.  About the only thing she didn't do was stick him in 
a dress.  (I've suddenly realized that Crabbe and Goyle becoming 
little girls for Draco wasn't meant to highlight their deep 
friendship -- it was a laugh at those girly Slytherins.)

As per me, about the only characters worth anything by the end of the 
series was the Malfoy family (barely). But I doubt that's how JKR 
wanted me to see it.  So I'm trying to look at these scenes as she 
would.  And Draco does not come across well at all.  We're supposed 
to laugh with Harry when we realize Draco's using his mother's wand.  
We're supposed to wince at Draco's cowardness when he screams and 
screams as the flames come closer.  And I'm betting we're supposed to 
think Draco was clinging to Goyle like he was his teddybear.

No, the heroes in that scene were the Trio.  Just as the book ends 
with Slytherin still the bad house and Gryffindor still the good 
house and house-elves happy little slaves.  The WW is an ugly world, 
but JKR seems to love it.  And you can try and twist it into 
something more palatable, but IMO you're fighting the author to do so.

> >>zgirnius:
> He should have told all assembled at the end of the book "Hey,     
> Folks! Slytherins are people too, they are motivated by love and   
> fear and a desire to belong and succeed just like us!"? I would    
> think especially the adults present would not have found this a    
> shocking revelation.

Betsy Hp:
Well, JKR sure would have. <g>  Especially that "succeed" bit.  
Remember, ambition is bad and Harry's goodness comes from the fact 
that he doesn't fuss too much about succeeding or not.  And that's 
where Dumbledore fell.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot get past the fact that when the big 
battle came Slytherin left and joined the enemy.  And when the big 
battle finished, the Malfoys sat by themselves.  And nineteen years 
later a Gryffindor boy could tease his brother about the possibility 
he "might" end up in Slytherin.  Harry never made that speech because 
in his world, it's just not true.
 

Betsy Hp