Lucius, Lucius, Lucius

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 179165

> > Catlady:
> > I see the specific 'dirty work' that Voldemort would do for 
> > Lucius was to be the figurehead, the name and face of the coup/ 
> > conquest/revolution, and Lucius would be hidden/invisible in 
> > that context. Voldemort would terrify all and sundry; Lucius, 
> > in Voldemort's name, would recruit some people to be Death 
> > Eaters, and Lucius's recruits would recruit enough bruisers
> > and spies to overthrow the opposed government and subdue the
> > population.

Mike:
The time for doing that, if indeed it was Lucius' plan, would have 
been those 13 years Voldemort was stuck in Albania as vapor. Did you 
see any new DEs beholden to Lucius? Crabbe and Goyle come the closest 
and they were obviously DEs before Voldemort's fall at GH. Where were 
the new recruits (in LV's name) that Lucius would use to subvert the 
absent Voldemorts hold over the other DEs.

The extent of Lucius' manipulations, that I saw, was to sneak the 
diary into Ginny's books. (Ironically, had this worked Lucius would 
have brought Voldemaort back sooner). If it was ever his intent to 
be the one to overthrow the Ministry, those donations/bribes were 
way too slow of a subversive method to work. Unless he was sure that 
Voldemort was gone for good. 



> a_svirn:
> And what would be the point of that? Revolutionary leaders aren't 
> in the habit of stepping politely aside once they come to power 
> and abdicate in favour of their minions. They are more likely to 
> reshuffle those minions from time to time just in case they get 
> ideas. <snip>

Mike:
Precisely. I think George Washington is the only revolution leader 
to step aside after winning, and the grateful colonials still made 
him president under the new government. And I don't think Voldemort 
or Lucius were planning to institute a democratic-republic.



> a_svirn:
> You are painting Lucius as a clever puppet master, but canon does
> not support this view. Voldemort had never been anyone's puppet,
  <snip>

Mike:
I thought that Voldemort assigning Lucius to be in charge of the MoM 
raid was not only punishment for the diary misuse, it was Voldemort 
the puppetmaster putting Lucius in a position to fail. Lucius wasn't 
depicted in canon as a tactical leader, he was the "slippery", 
Ministry subverter that took charge in torturing the defenceless 
Muggles. 

Lucius could Imperiuse for LV which, by definition, wasn't open 
antagonism against a foe that could put up a defence. If the target 
was capable of defending him/herself, according to canon, the 
Imperius wouldn't work and therefore wouldn't be attempted. The 
spellcaster had to catch the target unawares, a perfect type of job 
for the "slippery" Lucius.


> > Catlady:
> > The Death Eaters would respect Lucius as a high-ranking 
> > Death Eater and the Ministry, until overthrown, would respect 
> > Lucius as a rich man who was not on Voldemort's side.

Mike:
Nice plan, too bad Lucius didn't try it. It was all a case of what 
a_svirn said about the appearance of "Lord of the Manor": The facade 
for the Ministry wouldn't hold water for the other DEs.


> > Catlady:
> > I'm sure that Lucius expected that when Voldemort ruled the 
> > wizards, he would do and command what Lucius flattered and 
> > manipulating him into doing and commanding.

Mike:
In order for that to work, Voldemort would have to care what his DEs 
thought about him. He doesn't! It's all about Voldemort "honoring 
above all others" those DEs that put out exceptional service. That's 
the phrase that Voldemort bandies about and his minions parrot, and 
yet who did we ever see get "honored" in any way, shape, or form?


> a_svirn:
 <snip>
> They were all expected to abase themselves to equal degree. He may
> have been put in charge of some missions (thus doing the dirty work
> for Voldemort), but he had no real power, because he relinquished
> *all* of it to Voldemort from the start.

Mike:
Yes, that is an important point. Joining Voldemort meant becoming 
subservient from the start, whatever one's ultimate goal might have 
been. How could hitting out of the bunker at the start be better 
than teeing the ball up in the tee box? One may have farther to go 
but one certainly isn't starting out from a hole.



> > Catlady:
> > I'm sure Lucius expected that he would be able to build himself 
> > such a secure situation, right under Voldemort's nose, that at 
> > some point he could arrange for Voldemort to die or be eternally 
> > imprisoned in a lead bottle sealed with the sign of a seven 
> > pointed star and thrown into the sea. <snip
> 
> a_svirn:
> Well, I still don't see how he could have been so cheerfully 
> optimistic. Besides, why take such a roundabout route to power? 
> Surely it would be more fun and less risky if he (and other 
> purebloods) overthrew the Ministry on their own? Without enslaving 
> themselves to this half-blood self-proclaimed Lord? 
 <snip>

Mike:
The only thing that makes sense to me was if Voldemort had started 
his reign by intimidating or eliminating any dark wizards that 
didn't join him. If Lucius was convinced that any extra-Voldemortian 
activity would get him killed while LV was around, and if he knew he 
couldn't or wouldn't stop himself from getting involved, then I 
understand his decision to join Voldemort.


> a_svirn:
<snip>
> Granted, there would still be Voldemort to deal with, but
> without powerful wizards to back him he would be less 
> formidable. According to this scenario Lucius could afford 
> to negotiate with Voldemort instead of grovelling 
> at his feet. And he would be a player instead of a pawn.  

Mike:
Except Voldemort was there with his power base before Lucius was out 
of school. It would have been Lucius that was doing the catching up. 
(Unless you mean to do it between the wars. Then I agree, a much more 
viable option. Alas, Lucius didn't see it that way.) Besides, I 
didn't get the impression that Voldemort did a lot of "negotiating".

This is certainly a more dignified plan, more befitting of one such 
as Lucius. I would have loved for Lucius to have tried and failed a 
Ministry takeover during GoF. Then he somehow convinces Fudge (or 
Umbridge who convinces Fudge) that Dumbledore was behind the failed 
attempt. Probably too much to cram into that book, what with all the 
Hermione, Ron, Krum love triangle to explore - blech!

Mike, wondering if the Lucius takeover was the "getting off track" 
thing that JKR admitted happened in GoF that required a major 
overhaul in the middle of writing the book?