A Dark Glamour - Voldemort's Appeal - DDs Complicity

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 179235

> Mike:
<snip>
> Granted, not all of the things you predicted, and I agreed with, 
came 
> true; e.g. Dumbledore didn't engineer the release of the prophesy. 
> But he certainly took full advantage of it, by his own admission 
he 
> was training Harry to be "the chosen one" from the moment Harry's 
> parents were killed.

lizzyben:

Oh, didn't he? :) I really still believe that DD deliberately leaked 
the prophecy, & IMO that's supported by the text. "The Prince's 
Tale" revealed a lot of DD's machinations, but it was done in a very 
off-hand, casual way. Snape doesn't realize the importance of DD's 
statements, because he doesn't have all the puzzle pieces. But when 
readers combine Snape's memories with Harry's own memories, DD's 
puppet-strings become much more apparant. 

For example, "Keep an eye on Quirrel, will you?" is very off-hand, 
causal remark. JKR doesn't have a big reveal that "OMG Dumbledore 
knew Quirrel/Voldemort was after the Stone & totally set the 
obstacle course up for Harry to fight him!" But with that one 
statement, plus w/Harry's own statement in SS that "(DD) wanted to 
give me a chance to face Voldemort." ... and yeah, it's pretty safe 
to conclude that he did just that.

In regards to the prophecy, a lot of people noticed the 
discrepencies between Trelawney & DD's account of that event. DD 
said that Snape was thrown out before he heard the whole thing, but 
Trelawney said that Aberforth caught Snape outside the door & then 
brought him into the room. Snape had an opportunity to hear the 
entire prophecy, and DD had an opportunity to Legimens or oblivate 
Snape. So, the obvious question was, why did DD let Snape go with 
that information? Maybe DD, that trusting soul, didn't suspect that 
Snape was involved with the Death Eaters? If that were the case, DD 
should've been shocked when Snape came back & revealed that he was a 
DE who had taken the prophecy to LV. 

Except, in DH, we learn that DD knew Snape was a Death Eater 
all along. As soon as he sees Snape, he says "Well, Severus? What 
message does Lord Voldemort have for me?" So DD already knows that 
Snape is a Death Eater, and knows that Snape acts as a courier who 
brings messages to & from Voldemort. DD is expecting Snape to 
relay information from LV - just as Snape carried information about 
the prophecy *to* LV. It's safe to conclude that DD already knew 
that Snape was a DE when he was caught listening at the door - and 
DD allowed him to run straight to LV with what he had heard. It was 
a message to LV from DD, in a sense. 

Also, if DD deliberately leaked the prophecy, he'd want to be sure 
that LV only got the first half of the prophecy (about a 
Chosen One that can defeat LV), not the second half (that LV himself 
would create this Chosen One himself by marking the child). So, 
Prophecy!DD would want to know exactly how much of the prophecy 
Snape had heard & relayed to LV.

"What request could a Death Eater make of me?" 
"The - the prophecy, the prediction.... Trelawney...."
"Ah, yes," said Dumbledore. "How much did you relay to Lord 
Voldemort?"
"Everything - everything I heard!" (DH 681)

DD's first question is "how much did of the prophecy did you carry 
to LV?" Very important - DD only wants LV to hear the first half.  
Snape's answer ("everything I heard") seems to satisfy Dumbledore. 
Why? How could DD be sure that Snape didn't hear the second half of 
the prophecy? The text tells us how. Right before this exchange, DD 
ensures that he & Snape can't be heard by any 
eavesdroppers. "Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and 
branches stull flew through the night air around them, silence fell 
on the spot where he and Snape faced each other." (DH 681) DD cast a 
silencing spell. So if someone were eavesdropping on DD & Snape's 
conversation, they would only hear the first part, until Snape tells 
DD that he comes with a warning. Then, silence. The second part of 
the conversation would be totally silent & protected from any 
eavesdroppers. I think DD did the same thing with Trelawney. She 
began prophecizing, and after the first sentence, Dumbledore cast a 
silencing spell to ensure that an eavesdropper (Snape) couldn't hear 
the rest of the prophecy. This explains why Snape only heard and 
relayed the first half of the prophecy. 
 
I think DD would have sacrificed the Potters without a second 
thought to ensure that the prophecy came true; he was already 
planning to sacrifice an unknown family when he first leaked the 
prophecy to LV. So when he demanded payment from Snape for 
protecting the Potters, IMO he was totally serious about that. If 
Snape hadn't promised "anything", I think DD would've allowed the 
prophecy to play out as planned. And maybe he still did.

Mike:
> Though I don't hold Dumbledore in quite the contempt that you do, 
I 
> freely admit that he was very much the puppetmaster to Harry's 
Chosen 
> One.

lizzyben:

I wouldn't mind DD's manipulations so much if his plans actually 
worked!

Mike:
 The main difference is I thought Dumbledore's guidance was 
> needed to not just defeat LV but to also keep Harry alive to do 
it. 

lizzyben:

The "keeping Harry alive" thing gets a little muddled when DD's 
sending Harry into obstacle courses to confront Dark Wizards, 
disappearing w/Basiliks on the loose, making Harry enter the Tri-
Wizard tournaments, etc. etc. All part of letting Harry "try his 
strength". 

Mike:
> The destruction of LV's Horcruxes meant that Harry could have that 
> final battle that ultimately does Riddle in. Elsewise, Voldemort 
> would've kept coming back and would've continued to hunt Harry 
until 
> he finally found a way to kill him. That much is clear from DH, 
imo.

lizzyben:

DD's plan in DH is so nonsensical from top to bottom that I don't 
even know where to begin. Why did Harry have to find the Horcruxes? 
Wouldn't using some of the capable Order members be a better idea? 
And he left Harry w/no information at all, no helpers, etc. It 
could've taken Harry *years* to find them all, while LV's reign 
continues. It was only a small miracle (or plot contrivance) that 
allowed Harry to find them at all. And why did DD have the weird 
will gifts? What was the point? Even if Harry figures out the symbol 
(another miracle/deus ex machina), the Hallows were a useless 
subplot. As Dead!DD later says, Harry needed the horcruxes, not the 
hallows. So, not only is it a red herring, it's a red herring 
wrapped in a mystery that wastes everyone's time. 

The Elder Wand? DD knew LV would want it, yet never told Snape or 
Harry that he had it. The snitch? I never would've connected "open 
at the close" w/"the snitch will open when he's about to die", so 
props to Harry. Everything DD does is cloaked in mystery & secrecy 
that actually hurts the mission. It's like DD is more interested in 
showing his cleverness w/elaborate Rube Goldberg schemes rather than 
creating a plan that works. Harry won by sheer dumb luck - note that 
if things had gone according to DD's plan, Voldemort would have won. 


lizzyben