Dumbledore and other leaders

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 179493

---  "Dana" <ida3 at ...> wrote:
>
> bboyminn:
> > So, was General George Patton playing God when he send
> > countless thousands of soldiers to their deaths? They 
> > called him 'Blood and Guts' Patton. ... 'yeah, our blood,
> > his guts'. 
> > 
> > ...some one has to make these dark and terrible decisions.
> > ...
> 
> Dana:
> I think you are missing the point entirely or at least in 
> my opinion. ...big snip...

bboyminn:

I don't think we are so much disagreeing on this issue as
we are merely looking a different aspects of it. You made
some very good points within the bounds of your perspective,
but I think there are aspects that you and your perspective 
are ignoring. (Most likely there are aspect my perspective
is ignoring too.)


> Dana continues:
> 
> ... Like DD actual reason for this plan wasn't Harry's safe 
> transport but actually trying to get Snape into the 
> headmasters position. There was no other need for this 
> betrayal at all. Not letting LV know the MoM plan was bogus
> would have given the Order a safe opportunity to move Harry 
> from the Dursley's to a different location. It wasn't the 
> plan in itself that put the Order at great risk but the fact
> that this plan was part of another scheme that DD seemed 
> necessary to betray  them for.  
>  

bboyminn:

Again, while you have made some good general points, on this
particular point I have to disagree. Corruption in the Ministry
had made sure Harry would be captured if you used Floo or 
Apparation to escape. That left walking, riding (in a car), or
flying. Walking and riding in a car are too slow and too easily
overcome. I'm not saying plans couldn't have been made that
involved them, only that those plans are as risky or more risky
than any other. Regardless of our opinion, Dumbledore and the 
Order weighed the options and selected flying. Was it right or
was it wrong, we and they can only know for sure after the
fact.

Now let's address Dumbledore's alleged betrayal. According to
Moody there were very likely DE's paroling the area, and when
Harry's protective enchantment broke, they, the DE's, were
very likely to come swooping in. So, the attack was inevitable.

What Dumbledore did was take an inevitable attack and turn it
to his advantage. Knowing an attack was coming, he did his
best to confuse the enemy. Snape telling Voldemort of the 
attack didn't change whether it was going to happen, it only
changed the timing a little. And, the Seven Potter's more
than offset whatever timing advantage the DE's might have had.

Also, note that the Order knew that Snape was spying on 
Voldemort. The Order would have had to be addle minding not
to understand that information and misinformation flowed both
ways. They may or may not have specifically known about L-V
being informed of the date of the attack. It seems not, but
again, General's never confide everything to their troops. 
Each is inclined to know as much as the General feels he needs
to know to do his job. 

So, the difference that Dumbledore's alleged betrayal cost was
merely a slight shift in the timing, a shift that was offset
by the confusion of Seven Harrys. It is hard to say that the
Order/Guard were betrayed when they always expected an 
attack, and in the end, the plan succeeded. In wartime, that
is called 'victory'.

The 'Plan' always was /indeed/ to get Harry away safely, Snape
getting some 'brownie points' out of it was merely a side
benefit. A great side benefit for Snape, with little difference
in the out come of the 'escape'. At least in my opinion.

> Dana continues:
> 
> And with this last I include DD's plan for Snape to kill him
> because in the end (which I still consider another betrayal)
> I still do not see how it served Draco or the school because 
> essentially someone still died because of the loss of the 
> protection of Hogwarts too. Saving one life to lose another
> seems meaningless to me but maybe I am just entirely ignorant
> to what is considered to be good. ...
> 

bboyminn:

I'm slightly confused here, you are aware that Dumbledore was
already dying, and more so that he was very close to the end
of his life. It wasn't a matter of Dumbledore dying, it was
a question of whether they could turn Dumbledore's death to
their advantage. I would say they very much turned Dumbledore's
inevitable death to their advantage. 

Perhaps, just a mis-phrase but I don't understand -

" ...because of the loss of the protection of Hogwarts too."

How did Hogwarts lose any protection that it wasn't already
going to lose? I mean it lost Dumbledore, but Dumbledore
was close to lost already. If you mean 'other' protections,
that's were I'm really confused.

> Dana concludes:
>
> Also I saw someone stating that of course Harry would forgive
> DD because DD was his friend and was there for him when no 
> one else was. Sorry but I am not convinced that DD did not 
> perfectly set this up so Harry had no other choice but to be
> dependent on DD. ...

bboyminn:

Understanding comes with explanation, forgiveness comes with
time. Too many people in modern society confuse the two. The
classic 'mommy didn't love me', 'daddy didn't hug me', 'it's
all societies fault' might explain why someone committed a
crime, but it doesn't justify it and it doesn't forgive it.
At the end of the final book, Harry understands why 
Dumbledore did what he did, why he made the choice he made.
Those choices weren't perfect, but they were the best that
Dumbledore could do, and /understanding/ that, would likely
lead Harry to eventually forgive Dumbledore faults and 
mistakes.

You mentioned alternative scenarios under which Harry could
have been raised, but you are only looking at the 'rosy'
part of those scenarios. Dumbledore certainly weighed and
even spoke about Harry being raised under alternate 
circumstances. But while they would be better social
environments for Harry, they would not have been as well
defended and would have left Harry exposed and vulnerable.
Dumbledore weighed his priorities, and a LIVE Harry was
preferable to a happy but quickly dead Harry. 

Was it the perfect choice, maybe and maybe not, but it was
the best choice that Dumbledore could come up with on 
such short notice. And it must have been fairly good because
Harry is alive and victorious, and that means a lot to 
everyone including Harry.

Just a few more thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn