Andromeda as good Slytherin WAS: Disappointment

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 177619


> Magpie:
> Except that's what Adam was rather asking for was a poster child for 
> an admirable and likable Slytherin--which is why Snape and Regulus 
> and Phineas and Slughorn and the Malfoys didn't suffice for him. I 
> was starting from what he was asking for, agreeing that none of 
> those people give it, and also agreeing that Andromeda is too minor 
> to provide it even if she is it, which is what I thought he was 
> saying. Especially since many Slytherins seem like they might be 
> better if we only heard about them from afar, or wind up being less 
> than one might have expected from what one knew.
> 
> Scorpius Malfoy's generation also does not exist on the page, which 
> gives them an advantage too. 
> 
> "Home of Warped Wizards" seems pretty apt.
> 
> -m


Prep0strus:
My original point was to try to postulate what I thought Slytherin
meant to JKR.  It is undeniable that there are several Slytherin
characters with a certain amount of depth and complexity.  However, I
still believe that SLYTHERIN, as a whole represents all that JKR
thinks is wrong with the world.

I wound up debating and defending my opinions on a lot of different
characters, which doesn't matter in the end.  To me, none of the
slytherin characters rise to a level that is able to dispel my
feelings on what the books show for slytherins as a whole.  If any is
ever remotely admirable, it is because they display traits that would
allow them to be considered 'less-slytherin-like'.  Now, if you don't
agree with this, if you see goodness and equality shown in slytherin
in comparison to the other houses this posting really wasn't for you.
 there are some that see slytherin sort of how i do, but then feel
that there is a reverse prejudice going on, a kind of bigotry and hate
that jkr allows from non-slytherin characters towards slytherin, and
they consider this distasteful and wrong, but my opinion has been
that, to jkr, slytherin is representative of the ideals that are,
themselves, wrong.  and so the message she is not that it is ok to
look down on people with flaws, but that it is ok to look down on the
flaws themselves. she does not support bigotry of a group of people,
but she supports bigotry against bigotry.

This was done in a flawed manner, because she DID make some slytherin
characters that people care about and support.  but overall, i think
that is the justification for the way we see slytherin treated,
because slytherin is this representative of all that is bad.

Every DE was a slytherin, evil deed we have heard about was performed
by a Slytherin, aside from Peter the traitor, and Grindelwald and
Karakoff, who are outside the Hogwarts system.

The house songs while concentrating on the positive for other houses
concentrate on things with negative connotations for slytherin.

When other houses join together, Slytherin is left out.

Every character defined as slytherin has a preponderance of negative
traits and a paucity of positive ones.

i think this shows what jkr wanted to get across about slytherin.
While one can try to assume facts in evidence to make the story more
'real' - thinking that there must be good, nice slytherins out there
in the world, i think that if she wanted us to feel that way, she
could have given us those facts.

I see how someone can disagree with my conclusions, at several steps
along the way.  I just don't see how Andromeda can be used for that. 
Is someone really saying, 'Right, Adam, I see what you're saying here.
 Tons of evidence of Slytherin being JKR's way of representing
everything she thinks is wrong with humanity - but you forgot about
Andromeda!  See, her presence in the books shows how slytherin really
is good and equal.  If she weren't there, i'd be with you, but
obviously, now that i've reminded you of her, i'm sure you'll agree
jkr made slytherin just as equal as the other houses'.

She doesn't even state that Andromeda IS slytherin, despite our
assumptions.  And she barely exists for us to know her or for her to
have meaningful action.  If you want to appreciate her as a character,
sure - i mean, i enjoy discussing James and he was dead before the
series began.  I just don't see Andromeda as a powerful enough
presence to negate everything we are shown about Slytherin.

Amy:
Probably best to ask this from Adam himself, but since you did say
you agree, what's meant by admirable and likable -- someone who was
admirable and likable by Harry etc.'s standards, or by fandom? If
we're getting to fandom, I love Harry, but he's not always that
likable or admirable -- by the same reasoning, I suppose, Snape has
bajillions of fans who both like and admire him.

<SNIP> So why should
being admirable and likable put a Slytherin any farther above the
Slytherins we do have, who all seem to play into JKR's larger message?

Prep0strus:

I hope above I answered most of your first question (I was writing
whilst you posted).  As for admirable and likable... i don't know, I
guess. By me?  Because anything else, I guess i'd argue. Perhaps by
general consensus?  I don't agree with everything the 'good'
characters too. but i think that overall, most of them are likable
and/or admirable.  More importantly, we can find members of the 3
'good' houses who fit these qualities with ease.  and it is difficult
to find members of those houses who would be defined as 'equal'.  On
the other hand, with slytherin, almost every evil act performed is
performed by them, and i think it is difficult to find anything
likable or admirable about them.  I know the Snape lovers might jump
down my throat for that - he shows admirable courage, they like his
quips, but few deny that he is an unpleasant personality. And for me,
that's how I see the other Slytherin characters as well.  The original
posts, as I said above, were not so much about individuals as about
slytherin as a whole.  however, people who feel differently as i hold
up different slytherins as examples for why they don't share my
opinion, and i'm simply explaining why those example slytherins don't
do enough to make slytherin appear good or equal.  I still think that
despite some characters not being 100% evil, the house itself is meant
to represent unpleasant characteristics of humanity - ambition without
conscience, bigotry, and cruelty.

To return a question to you - what do you think JKR's larger message
is, that you refer to in your posting?

Beverly:

I don't know why I'm letting myself get drawn into this but I must
ask, why is it so important for Draco to be the final and absolute
example of a good Slytherin? His was not an abandoned storyline. He
continued with his doubts about serving LV through the last book
because of his love for his family, and the fact that he feared for
their lives if he made a wrong move. Until the moment Voldemort died
Draco and his parents were the objects of ridicule and derision from
all of the DE. IE, he had to beg for his life from a fellow DE who
pretended not to know him when Harry and Ron last saved his life.
When was he supposed to make this big change?
Until the final battle his parents were effectively hostages to LV.
He was taking a risk by staying with Crabbe and Goyle and not
returning to LV's side when Hogwarts was evacuated. Both parents
feared for his safety immediately knowing this was not like him to
endanger them more when LV was already using them as an example of
what happened to DE when they <disappointed> him. The Malfoys were
never away from LV since Lucius came out of Azkaban.
I can't believe Draco would sacrifice his parents to become a good
Slytherin at the last.
Not even if he knew that's what some readers wanted.

Prep0strus:
It's how you read it.  I felt like his storyline was abandoned in DH.
 I was very invested in HBP, and in DH, he felt forgotten, an
afterthought.  I disagree with your premise that in order to become a
good slytherin he would have to sacrifice his parents.  i have no idea
how the story could have gone differently - the possibilities are
endless. perhaps voldy was going to punish his parents for some
failing, and in standing up for them, he fully rejects voldemorte, and
at a later time finds himself allied with harry.  perhaps harry saves
his parents, turning draco.  really, i don't know what i expected.  I
mean, i think i expected him to turn a little more good - not nice,
not harry's 'friend' - but good.  to recognize the consequences of his
actions and feelings and adjust them, change somewhat.   but really, i
was expecting simply something MORE.  he's been this constant presence
for 5 books, then this real character with an important storyline, one
of the ones i was most invested in in book 6, and then it just felt
dropped.  i felt that everything she was building to simply fizzled
away.  it's not the choices he made, but the lack of choices. or maybe
the lack of us getting to see those choices.  whichever, it was a
disappointed.  as for why it's so important he be the example of a
good slytherin?  that depends on the person you ask.  but since there
was no other example, he would be a good one, because he's young, and
can represent the future.  he's someone clearly raised wrong, who has
terrible ideas implanted in his head - to see him change is to see the
possibility of change for the future. to believe that the sins of the
father don't have to become the sins of the son.  it's a symbol of
hope.  but what we got, really, was simply a literary dropping of the
ball.  imo, of course. some seem to really appreciate what happened
with draco.  maybe hbp raised my expectations too high.

Pippin:
JKR showed us that her world does not end with death.

"Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." The
doe patronus not only shows us that Snape doesn't live in
complete misery, it promises something more than memory.
Where Lily is, that's where his treasure, ie his reward,
will be.

Prep0strus:
That's a pretty positive view.  I don't know that we understand the ww
afterlife all that well, but they seem to have some semblance of
consciousness and consistency.  Therefore, Lily is going to be
spending her afterlife with james.  i'm sure there will be forgiveness
in the afterlife, but is snape really going to want to spend the
afterlife following james and lily around? some have proposed
alternate afterlives, in which snape can spend his eternity with lily,
while she is also with james, but i think that diminishes her and her
life and afterlife.  lily can't be snape's reward - she will always
torture him.  and throughout his life, snape never made another
friend, never loved another person.  i don't know what the afterlife
holds for severus, but i don't think his story is one of hope.  his
life held no hope, and unless he has learned to open himself up, I
don't see his afterlife being very happy either.


Pippin:
Voldemort did not create House Elf slavery so why should
we expect that his defeat will be the end of it? The
House Elf slavery plotline does not go nowhere. It
goes to there being two wizards who are believe in
House Elf liberation instead of one. That's exponential
growth.

I was hoping for more for Draco and Snape myself,
mostly because of The LIttle White Horse. But even in its
own context, TLWH is a bit pollyanna-ish. And now it
seems to me that if Draco or Snape had become friends
with Harry, JKR would have lost something important,
which is that people you don't like can be just as
helpful as the people you do.

Prep0strus:
But just because Voldy didn't create something and his defeat doesn't
change it doesn't mean the story can't address it.  JKR created house
elf slavery as an issue. she made it an obnoxiously large issue, in
fact. and she let that storyline fall to the wayside like so  many
others.  If the story was 100% about defeating Voldemort, you'd be
right.  But jkr created a story filled with subplots and ideas and
possibilities, many of which she simply seemed to forget about in this
book.  One wizard to two?  There may be even more than that.  But it
went from one ELF to none.  Makes the whole issue a little moot.

I don't think I ever thought Draco or Snape would be 'friends' with
Harry.  That doesn't mean I couldn't expect more from their
storylines.  And I don't think Draco was just as helpful as anyone
harry liked by any stretch of the imagination.


Phew.  Sorry for the long post. maybe i should have broken it up. oh well.

~Adam (Prep0strus)