[HPforGrownups] Re: Gryffindor & Slytherin roles (was Villain!Dumbledore)

[Lenore]

No: HPFGUIDX 177714


> > > Lenore:
> > In the Gryffindor perception, they ARE white/good and Slytherin
> > is black/evil.  It is a very simplistic and unreflective viewpoint.  It
> > really says less about Slytherin than it does about the Gryffindor
> > attitude, which is more about unexamined assumptions than anything
> > else.
>
>Prep0strus:
>But that's been my point - it's not the 'Griffindor perception'. It's
>reality as it exists in the book.  It is not a 'viewpoint' or a 'way
>of looking at things'. IMO, it's the truth of the wizarding world, as
>told by JKR.

Lenore:
Yep. I rest my case.

>Lenore:
> > Yes, that is the lie which we are expected to believe, it seems.
> > It was because it is such a blatant lie that I really expected and
> > hoped in the final book that it would be exposed as the lie it is.
>
>Prep0strus:
>But it wasn't. And so it's not a lie. It's truth. It's reality.  It
>may not be what many of us were hoping for, but that's how it is.  The
>evil of Slytherin is not the responsibility of Griffindor - it is
>inherent to Slytherin.  It's not a ruse, and it's not sleight of hand.
>I believe that JKR took the qualities she finds wrong and distasteful,
>and imbued them into one particular house.

Lenore:
Of course. That is pretty obvious.

Prepostrus:
>Then she created every
>character in that house to represent those ideas, to lesser or greater
>extent, but never allowing herself to go so far as to create a
>character within that house who can be good, and kind, and nice.  They
>are tragically flawed because they exist within the construct she has
>created.
>Every time something evil was done, it was done by members of this house.
>(snip)

>But there isn't.  There never was.  So it can't be a lie.  And a lie
>we are 'expected to believe'?  Like JKR is pulling a giant Andy
>Kaufman-esque trick on us all?  No.  I don't think one has to like the
>world she has created, but it doesn't make it something that it's not.

Lenore:
The WW is a twisted world, built and based on the lie I described--
the psychological self-deception that pervades the books, imo.

And as for the "giant tricks", hasn't JKR been pulling them on us
through all the books from the start?

Prepostrus:
>Griffindors cannot be blamed for how they think of Slytherins because
>they are RIGHT.  Slytherins ARE bad and wrong and represent what is
>wrong.  They DO represent prejudice and cruelty.  This is not a
>statement on Griffindors and how they are prone to prejudice and
>thinking - that would be a different story.

Lenore:
Sorry, but that *is* the substory.  We see Gryffs behaving with cruelty
and prejudice all through the books. They just don't take responsibility
for correcting any of it.  They can't, actually, because they have no
real insight into it, nor awareness of what they're doing.

Preposterus:
>In this story, Slytherins
>represent what is wrong with the world, and the Griffindors and others
>who fight against that (including even the extraordinarily flawed
>Slytherins who are only good by virtue of their non-Slytherin
>qualities but do fight on the side of good) are in the right.  They
>are also flawed, but they are fighting with what JKR perceives as
>wrong in the world - and that is the ideals of Slytherin, most
>perfectly represented in Tom Riddle.

Lenore:
I just happen to think it is a very poor depiction of "what is
wrong with the world".  For one thing, it is simplistic and
upside down. I agree with you that that is the WW as created
by JKR.  I have a very hard time with the idea that it reflects
her truth, her reality (as you put it), and that the book she
wrote reflects her actual beliefs. That is what's scariest of all,
because of the phenomenon which her story has become in
our world. It seems to support prejudice in all its forms.

I take the position that I don't know what her beliefs are, nor
why she would write a series which depicts really ugly beliefs,
and then not resolve them in any satisfactory manner at all.
That's why I haven't posted much on Bk 7.

You say those on the "good side" are always in the right, and they
are fighting what JKR perceives as being wrong in the world--
Hmm.

In any case, it is a silly fight which can never be won, because
it is being fought at the level which perpetuates "evil" and does
nothing at all to really heal the world.

Lenore