Gryffindor & Slytherin roles (was Villain!Dumbledore)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 177727

> > Lenore:
> > In the Gryffindor perception, they ARE white/good and Slytherin
> > is black/evil.  It is a very simplistic and unreflective 
> > viewpoint.  It really says less about Slytherin than it does 
about 
> > the Gryffindor attitude, which is more about unexamined 
assumptions 
> > than anything else.
> <snip>
> > That is a view which makes it awfully convenient for the other
> > three-fourths of humanity!  <snip> The Gryffindors are, in a word,
> > enablers who make sure that the Slytherins stay in their place 
and 
> > continue to carry out their role as scapegoats-- as Objects upon 
> > which evil is projected, in order that the three-fourths can carry
> > on their lives in the comfort of a delusional "goodness".  
> 
> Jen: 
> This explanation is why I balk at the idea that other groups in the 
> WW are somehow responsible for what happened to Slytherin house.  
> Riddle/Voldemort destabilized what appeared to be a more stable 
> situation among the houses.  And Harry, when he arrived on the 
scene, 
> was another destabilizer because of his unique history.  But at the 
> core of the problem in the story is is a false belief that was 
passed 
> down to each generation saying pure blood = superiority.  It wasn't 
> something anyone *did* to Slytherin house to continue the tradition 
> there.

Magpie:
I think the misunderstanding here is that it's kind of slippery, 
sometimes being meta and outside the text, but reflecting inside the 
text as well. Gryffindors aren't responsible for what happens to 
Slytherins, it's that the whole world is set up with a quarter of the 
population as scapegoats by the author. Within the universe it's just 
a fact that Slytherins are really just as awful as everyone thinks.

Where the actual characters are scapegoating is not that they're 
driving anyone out, it's that they never look at themselves, never 
see any connection between the stuff done by the Slytherins and 
anything in themselves. Looking from outside the text, this is about 
the author just taking everything really bad and characterizing the 
Slytherins that way, while the other houses are clearly different. 

Within the text, it's not that the good guys are being mean to 
Slytherin, it's that they've got this weird scapegoat class--and 
within the reality of this universe, the scapegoating actually works 
(supposedly) and is true. The Slytherins are different from they are, 
they (Slytherin) are the ones who are bigoted. You attack bigotry by 
attacking the bigots (those other people, not us), not by looking at 
the bigotry within yourself. It's a total disconnect, and for many of 
us looks like projection.

I don't know how to communicate this idea well, because it came up 
after DH and it seemed like either you thought the book was blatantly 
doing this, or else the whole concept was gibberish because the 
Slytherins are the Nazis. I'm sure there's probably been stuff 
written that explains it better that I can. 

I guess the problem is "the lie" that Lizzyben mentioned. Adam 
pointed out that "the lie" is not a lie, because Slytherin really is 
bad. There was no turnaround where we learned that Slytherins only 
seemed bad through the lense of our heroes. Lizzy replied that "the 
lie" was the whole basis of the created truth of canon. For some of 
us that truth always seemed to keep peeking out at the seams, though, 
and that's why we thought there would be a climax that depended on 
big self-realization on the good side. So at the end rather than 
saying, "Oh, they won because they beat Voldemort and the good guys 
are in charge so racism got dealt a great blow even if it isn't 
completely gone!" we said, "Huh. So I guess they're not going to deal 
with the whole bigotry thing and everything else the Slytherins 
represent at all. What a weird story that says absolutely nothing 
about bigotry." Actually, maybe it does say things about bigotry, 
just not things I really think are true or challenging. I mean, if 
you're a regular middle class British kid you've pretty much got 
nothing to learn. You get rid of the kids bullying you and then you 
take your correct place in society.

-m