Gryffindor & Slytherin roles (was Villain!Dumbledore)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 177729

> Magpie:
> I think the misunderstanding here is that it's kind of slippery, 
> sometimes being meta and outside the text, but reflecting inside 
the 
> text as well. Gryffindors aren't responsible for what happens to 
> Slytherins, it's that the whole world is set up with a quarter of 
the 
> population as scapegoats by the author. Within the universe it's 
just 
> a fact that Slytherins are really just as awful as everyone thinks.
> <SNIP>
> > I guess the problem is "the lie" that Lizzyben mentioned. Adam 
> pointed out that "the lie" is not a lie, because Slytherin really 
is 
> bad. There was no turnaround where we learned that Slytherins only 
> seemed bad through the lense of our heroes. Lizzy replied 
that "the 
> lie" was the whole basis of the created truth of canon. For some 
of 
> us that truth always seemed to keep peeking out at the seams, 
though, 
> and that's why we thought there would be a climax that depended on 
> big self-realization on the good side. So at the end rather than 
> saying, "Oh, they won because they beat Voldemort and the good 
guys 
> are in charge so racism got dealt a great blow even if it isn't 
> completely gone!" we said, "Huh. So I guess they're not going to 
deal 
> with the whole bigotry thing and everything else the Slytherins 
> represent at all. What a weird story that says absolutely nothing 
> about bigotry." Actually, maybe it does say things about bigotry, 
> just not things I really think are true or challenging. I mean, if 
> you're a regular middle class British kid you've pretty much got 
> nothing to learn. You get rid of the kids bullying you and then 
you 
> take your correct place in society.
> 
> -m
>


Alla:

But how does it not say things about bigotry? I mean, assuming that 
you buy the idea that Slytherins are really bad ( or Slytherins are 
Natsis thing), isn't what the book saying for the middle class 
british kid that saying bad words and thinking that people of 
different ethnicity is BAD? What Slytherins did are bad, horrible, 
etc.

Isn't it much more than the bullying level?

I am also not sure why to be challenging the good guys should 
discover in themselves the same bigotry as Slytherins had and deal 
with it?

Many people truly do not have it in themselves to be bigots, at 
least of the type of Purebloods rule, muggleborns need to be killed, 
no?

I mean, it is again reflection of what was said in thread in general 
and NOT obviously attempt to debate perceptions, but I am just 
wondering how the message that people of different ethnicity ( 
muggleborns) are just as good as you are is not challenging.

I mean, believe it or not, I never in my life called person a racist 
name, I NEVER in my life thought of person of different ethnicity as 
beneath me in some way, shape or form. I had been victim of such 
discrimination and know how horrible it is, soooo if I am saying for 
example that the type of badness that Slytherin ideology is I do not 
have anywhere in my mind, does it mean that I am projecting, 
scapegoating?

I mean, you know that I do not buy that analysis in the first place, 
but I am just wondering if JKR indeed saying that her bad guys have 
some qualities that good guys do not have, why exactly is this a lie?

Take more extreme example, say what you wish about Harry use of 
Unforgivables, but instead of killing in DH, he stuns. We can agree 
that he does not want to kill people, no?

So it would be a safe inference that he does not have in himself 
what for example Crabb and Goyle have? They want to kill people, 
Harry does not. Right?

And it is not like she does not show Gryffindors having several bad 
qualities IMO - they can lie, cheat, steal, be rash, reckless, etc.

They are just by and large not racists and not killers ( well, there 
is Peter, so some of them are). It is a lie? I mean, I am replying 
to thread in general, but I think it is a very correct observation 
about human nature - A LOT of people are not racists and killers.

JMO,

Alla