Harry, impossible to kill?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 177772

---  "errolowl" <errolowl at ...> wrote:
>
> bboyminn:
> <snip> 
> Now, in the final Duel, several things are coming 
> into play, ... But what made the final curse rebound?
> It could be complex or it could be simple. It maybe 
> that Harry simply casting /any curse/ at the moment 
> that Voldemort sends his curse, caused the rebound. 
> ... it could be a combination of all or some of these
> things. We will never know for sure, ...
> 
> 
> Errol:
> 
> And lets not forget the Hallows. I'm jumping in here, 
> and this may have already come up, but technically 
> Harry possessed all three hallows and thus was the 
> legendary "master of death" at that point in time. 
> ... He couldn't be killed if the legend had any 
> truth to it.
> 

bboyminn:

Yes, IF the legend had any truth to it, but I don't
think it does. The legend is based in the truth of
the three brothers and the objects they created but
beyond that it has been expanded into a fanciful
fairy story. I don't think we can take that fairy
story literally. 

The 'Master of Death' might be the 'fairy' part of the
story, but that doesn't change the fact the the Hallows
objects were immensely powerful and unique. I do think
Harry being the Master of the Wand does come into play,
and that is a powerful advantage in Harry's favor. But
I don't believe for one minute the total Master of 
Death concept.

> Errol:
>
> ...
> 
> The point is, I wonder why JKR wrote in so many 
> things that would serve the purpose of protecting 
> Harry. Just one plot device, sufficiently set up 
> would have done. The blood, the wand, the hallows, 
> the sacrifice ... seems like over kill to me.
> 

bboyminn:

Though I am only guessing, I think that was the point.
In truth, Harry once again survived by pure dumb luck,
a lot of guessing, and a lot of bluffing. True he chose
to act rather than cower in fear, and that is a very 
big plus for him.

> Errol:
>
> As a side note, when did Harry figure out the 
> possibility that he owned the wand? If he knew in 
> the forest that he probably possessed all three 
> Hallows, that makes his sacrifice all the more 
> laudable. If he figured it out later, it takes away
> from the whole hallows  plot point. I am curious what
> people think about this.
> 

bboyminn:

Harry was Master of Death in the metaphorical sense.
Those who master death no longer fear it. They 
understand that to be alive, and to live the life
you are given, is to accept that you can and will
die.

One could say that Voldemort was deathly afraid of
death. Where as, much like the third wise brother of
which he is descended, Harry embraced death and the
possibility of dying. Voldemort lived his life in
fear of death. Harry many times embraced the 
possibility of death fearlessly. Harry understood
that some things are worth dying for; friends for
example.

Now to the central question, when did Harry figure
out that /he/ was Master of the Wand? I'm not
actually sure that he did. I've always said there
was an element of confident bluffing going on in
Harry's final speech. It seems reasonable that
Harry was the owner of the Wand, but even Ollivander
doesn't fully understand the change of a wands
allegiance, so I don't see how Harry could know for
sure. I think it was fairly clear that Voldemort
was not the owner, and I think more than anything,
that was the important factor. 

I think Harry is putting it together in pieces as
he goes. To some extent, I think he realized part 
of it when he talked to Ollivander at Shell Cottage,
but hadn't really put together the full implications
of what it meant. I think another piece of the
puzzle falls into place when Harry talks to 
Dumbledore in the near-death Kings Cross. I think in
the final moment of confrontation with Voldemort all
the pieces fall into place. He sees that Voldemort's
spells are no longer binding, for example.

I think more than anything Harry is trying to shake
Voldemort confidence and get him rattled. Harry knows
that when Voldemort becomes very emotional, the 
barrier between them drops, and this is critical to
Harry winning. He has to know precisely when 
Voldemort's curse is coming, and the only way to 
know that is to get Voldemort to drop his Occlumency
protection. So, as I said, to some extent Harry is
bluffing as a means of instilling fear and doubt in
Voldemort.

As I said, it may merely be the fact that Harry cast
/any curse/ at the same moment that Voldemort did 
that saved Harry and caused the curse to rebound. Then
again, it may not have been that simple after all. I 
think that was the point. We know Harry was saved, and
we know several factors came into play, but we really
don't know for sure what saved Harry. I think JKR 
did that as a reflection of life. In life, we never
really know /why/ things are. We make up explanations
after-the-fact to give us comfort, but truthfully 
we don't know why we are alive while so many around
us die. 


> 
> Errol 
> (Who's not at all clear what the point of the Hallows
> was anyway.)
>

bboyminn:

I think the Hallows serve many purposes in the story.
One I think is Temptation. Can and will Harry be 
distracted from his central task? The Hallows represent
tremendous Power. Will Harry chose Power over self-
sacrifice? Remember that as soon as Harry figures the
Hallows out, he is obsessed with them. Sure that if 
he can obtain all this power, he can defeat Voldemort.
It is only after a long hard bout of thinking after
Dobby's death, that Harry makes his choice of self-
sacrifice or what will soon become self-sacrifice. 

Metaphorically, I think this is symbolic of The Last
Temptation of Christ. In a sense, Christ is being
offered a choice between Power and Self-Sacrifice.
The Devil says choose me and you can have unfathomable
power; choose God and you can have the death you 
know is coming. In the end, Christ choses self-
sacrifice. Christ does his duty, and so does Harry.

In another sense, the Hallows are there as a means of
contrasting Harry attitude toward death with Voldemorts.
Harry is always willing to risk and sacrifice himself
for others, whereas, as much as possible, Voldemort
sends others out to do his dirty work and still takes
all the credit for himself. Again, I think the Hallows
set up a metaphor by which we can compare and contrast
Harry and Voldemort. 

Finally, to some extent, the Hallows are merely the
McGuffin of the story. Something that the characters
are obsessed with but in reality have little to do
with the actual resolution of the plot. It is merely
a device to force the story forward, much like the
Tri-Wizards Tournament carried GoF forwards but in 
the end had little effect one way or the other.

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn