Villain!Dumbledore (was: re:HatingDH/Dementors/...Draco/.../KeepSlytherin Ho

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 177831

> >>Prep0strus:
> > <snip>
> > I feel that between the hat and the characters, that Slytherin    
> > has been a dumping ground for all that's bad.  As much as
> > there are flaws in the good characters, all the real evil that is
> > done is done by Slytherins, aside from Peter's betrayal (which
> > really seems like weakness akin to Draco, so if one were to defend
> > Draco, I think Peter would be equally defensible).  Why couldn't a
> > Death Eater have been noted as anything other than Slytherin?  We
> > obviously disagree on the hat attributes, but it seems fairly
> > obvious what JKR thinks of the Slytherin brand of ambition to me.
> > <snip>

Betsy Hp:
To me that's the real sticking point: what did the author want to put 
across to her readers?  And I have to agree with you, that despite 
her interview which seemed to make statements to the contrary, 
Slytherin is the house of all that is bad.  I think where things get 
complicated is that what JKR sees as bad and what her readers see as 
bad don't always match up. 

> >>Prep0strus:
> > In a fictional universe, without an example of something, I don't 
> > know why I should assume one exists.  JKR took every opportunity 
> > she could to show Slytheirn in a bad light - we even got some    
> > historical nastiness in DH with the Baron killing the Grey Lady.  
> > Endless examples of Slytherin cruelty exist, and so, yes, I need 
> > an actual textual presence for me to think that the house is     
> > actually neutral, that the world is actually neutral.  Simply    
> > because the real world is does not mean that the books are.       
> > Because that example does NOT exist. It's a created world - if    
> > it's not there, it's not there.  I don't know that the world is   
> > black and white... but it's certainly very dark grey and slightly-
> > offwhite.  Let's call it charcoal and eggshell.

Betsy Hp:
I think it's that "charcoal and eggshell" coloring that threw JKR's 
world off.  Because there were nasty things done by Gryffindor's 
(blood judgement, hissing at smaller children, bad sportsmanship, 
possibly accidental but never worried about almost murder, muggle 
baiting, etc.) that completely turned me off of them as a House.  And 
there were Slytherin moments (specifically where Draco was concerned) 
that made me think there was more to the story than simply, this 
kid's a bad egg and nothing good will ever come of him.

So I gravitated away from Gryffindor and towards Slytherin.  But 
then, all of a sudden (IMO it was sudden anyway) JKR made her world 
black and white.  No Slytherin joined Neville's rebellion.  All of 
Slytherin walked out of the fight.  They weren't neutral at all.  
They were evil, dark, nasty.  And since I'd been relating to them 
more than the Gryffindors it was a bit of a slap in the face.

Actually, it was incredibly disturbing to me, because characters I'd 
been seeing as individualized were suddenly (for me) forced into a 
rather ugly stereotype.  It would have been better in the long run, I 
think, if JKR had never humanized Slytherin in the first place.  Then 
it'd have been hard to accuse her of turning around and de-humanizing 
them.

> >>Celoneth:
> Maybe we're just looking at different things. While you see what's
> negative with Slytherin ambition - I see very clearly what's        
> negative with Gryffindor recklessness, and the other houses.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I do as well.  But I think JKR did not.  DH ends with Harry never 
facing some of his own flaws.  None of the Gryffindor characters 
really have to face any of the flaws I saw them as having.  Whereas 
Slytherin is denied any sort of goodness and turned out of Hogwarts.

> >>Celoneth:
> Characters are capable of good, they're capable of evil we see that 
> with most of them - including with Slytherins - that's why I'd     
> characterise them as neutral.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Again, that's how I saw all of the characters, and most especially, 
the Houses.  But it's hard for me to see the end of DH as anything 
but a repudiation of Slytherin.  Apparently, they are the source of 
everything wrong in the WW.  I suppose the death of Voldemort and 
their  being publically exposed as rotten is the "dilution" JKR spoke 
of, but since she wrote in a not so black and white way, the black 
and white ending struck a false note with me.
 
(It surprises me that JKR actually linked the Houses with the 
elements, which by definition should be neutral.  Frankly that 
interview regarding Slytherin makes me wonder what the heck she 
thought she was writing in DH.  What on earth was she leading the 
reader towards?  And why does Hogwarts keep Slytherin around?  It's a 
mystery.  Or at least, I find the most probable answer pretty 
disturbing.)

Betsy Hp