Likeable Slughorn (was: Villain!Dumbledore )

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 177853

> > Magpie:
> > Slughorn's a teacher. His job is teaching these kids magic. He 
> > has different expectations based on their blood--and teachers can
> > do a lot of damage with low expectations. <snip>
> 
> Mike:
> Where's the canon that Slughorn treats Muggleborn students 
different 
> than his other students? IIRC, Slughorn is impressed with Hermione 
> before he realizes she is the Muggleborn top-of-the-class. From 
the 
> conversation in HBP Ch 4, that seems to have been the case with 
Lily, 
> too. Slughorn seems to have taken the measure of the student 
*before* 
> he has any knowledge of their blood status. Did we see Slughorn 
ask 
> or find out the blood status of any other students? Not that I 
recall.

Magpie:
The canon is Slughorn inviting kids with good family connections 
etc. to his compartment to invite them into his club before school 
even starts, and even adding to that earlier by stating that he 
associates Muggle-borns with being less magical. Sure if you're an 
exceptional Muggle-born you can get his attention. Bully for him. If 
you're a regular Muggle-born you lack the advantage of a regular kid 
with magical relatives, and he's assuming you have less potential 
than the non-Muggle-born. And for canon that he treats students 
differently, I don't see how that could be any more clear than 
scenes where Slughorn is comically different in the way he treats 
any kid he thinks can do something for him and kids who can't. JKR 
even has him invite a kid to his cabin and then when it turns out 
he's not in contact with his cool relative he passes him over for 
cake.

Ethnicity or whatever you want to call Muggle-borns is not always 
the deciding factor in whether he's going to ignore you or not, but 
it certainly can be one of them. It is one by default. 

And this is why I think these books are bizarre, because JKR puts 
bigotry as her central evil, and yet bigotry seems defined as 
wanting to kill people who are of a different ethnicity. What a 
petty end to a 7 book series for me to be discussing whether the 
attitude of somebody like Slughorn is bad or not.


> > Magpie:
> > "Welcome to my class, John. I don't think you're a bad person, 
but 
> > I don't expect you to do as well in my class as the students 
with 
> > better blood--the ones I'm automatically inviting into my 
special 
> > club designed to network them into the positions of power in 
> > society because they've got powerful relatives." 
> 
> Mike:
> You read that type of greeting where? Or you have imagined that's 
> what Slughorn is *thinking*? But still, this is prejudice, not 
> bigotry, in my reading of the terms.
> 
> You saw Slughorn inviting only white, male pure-bloods into the 
> Slugclub? Only Slytherins?

Magpie:
And as I've explained a number of times, not inviting only white, 
male pure-bloods into the Slug Club does not, to me, indicate that 
the guy can't be bigoted. It seems you have to work damn hard in 
this universe to be considered a bigot. Saying you have [insert 
ethnic group] friends actually is proof you're not one in this 
universe, apparently.

 
> > Magpie:
> > I don't see how "not good at the thing upon which our entire 
> > society is based" isn't disfavor. Especially since haven't 
people 
> > actually looked at the bad effect this kind of attitude has on 
> > students? <snip>
> 
> Mike:
> It's only disfavor if Slughorn acts upon it. In what part of 
either 
> book have you found Slughorn acting upon his prejudicial 
> inclinations? Because contrary to acting upon his prejudice, I saw 
> him invite one Muggleborn into his Slug Club and covet another for 
> her talents, wishing she were in his House. Which Muggleborn did 
you 
> see him exclude for his/her blood status? Which Muggleborn did you 
> see him treat "disfavorably" because of their blood status?

Magpie:
Being from a good Wizarding family is an advantage to Slughorn. 
Slughorn acts on that advantage by inviting kids from good families 
into his Club and treating them markedly differently in class. 

Does this mean that only Muggle-borns are excluded? No, so is Ron 
excluded for reasons that have nothing to do with blood. And 
Hermione, by bringing something special to the table, is included. 
If you're ordinary with good connections, you're in. If you're 
ordinary and Muggle-born, you're not. 

As to acting on his prejudice, the guy considers Muggle-born's 
natural inferiority so much a fact it's one of the first things he 
says in canon. This indicates to me the character judges on blood--
that's why he can list all the Muggle-borns in his Club and files 
them in his mind as such. Given the almost OTT demonstrations I'm 
given that this guy treats people differently based on the 
advantages he sees in them, I find it hard to imagine that his 
attitude doesn't come through in his teachings of the class. One of 
Slughorn's main traits is that he's not very good at hiding how much 
he thinks somebody's worth. If he assumes a kid's not got as much 
natural talent as another one because she's Muggle-born, why 
wouldn't he treat her that way? You can hardly judge by his 
treatment of Hermione, who by the time he meets her is a sixth year 
and a character for whom one of the first character traits we got 
from her was that she put herself forward and showed off in class. 
It's the middle of the road Muggle-borns and the ones who struggle 
who don't deserve to be saddled with Slughorn as a teacher.

> > Magpie:
> > I don't see anything in the actual world-building to say this is 
a 
> > generational thing. Asking me to superimpose my own world's 
history 
> > on it to excuse him seems a bit sloppy. 
> 
> Mike:
> But you are willing to superimpose our world's racism on this 
topic. > I'm suppose to see those parallels, while you deny the 
generational 
> parallels. Just because Godric Gryffindor championed Muggle and 
> Muggleborn rights (BTW, where does this come from? I don't 
remember 
> reading this in the books) doesn't mean they thought pure-bloods 
> weren't more talented.

Magpie:
Well, yes. I said it's sloppy, but I'm stuck with it since I've got 
no actual world-building to use instead. So it's possible that when 
it comes to Slughorn he's supposed to be indicative of a past 
attitude. If I didn't superimpose our world's racism on the books 
half the time they'd lose a lot of their meaning--DH isn't half as 
sinister if you don't connect registering Muggle-borns to 
registering done by Nazis.

So maybe that is the point with Slughorn, but I don't think it's 
unfair of me to not be sure, given that if you're looking for "who 
has these attitudes in this story?" Slughorn's attitude links him 
more to Slytherins (we see some of them espouse the attitude that 
Muggle-borns shouldn't be as good students as Pure-bloods) more than 
other old people (who have not been as consistently connected to the 
idea). 

I'm still not saying you're wrong about Slughorn's attitude being 
linked to something that was supposed to be more acceptable in the 
past, but I'm understanding it for the same reason I understand a 
lot of other stuff--by picking up on cues that hint of my own world 
and filling in the gaps. That's certainly how I explain why 
Slughorn's Slughorn in Tom Riddle's day is iirc described as all 
male. Of course, an attitude being considered acceptable in the past 
doesn't mean it was ever particularly acceptable.

Mike:
 What makes a wizard "powerfully magical"? Was 
> pure-blood=more magical all snobbery/bigotry or was there a trace 
of 
> truth to it, or a perceived belief? We don't know either of these. 
> It's all conjecture when trying to discern the history of these 
> beliefs.

Magpie:
Well, we're told by some or our good guy characters that it's all 
snobbery/bigotry with no truth to it, but they could be wrong, I 
guess. Though it seems to be bizarre that at the end of the series 
we'd be wanting to argue that in fact the belief at the core of 
Voldemort's philosophy was correct. They quite possibly might be 
superior, and they can think it, but they just shouldn't express it. 
(I admit I have a hard time seeing any Wizards managing that.)


> > Magpie:
> > So in order for Slughorn to possibly be bigoted to you he has to 
> > pick every Pureblood and have nothing but Purebloods in his club?
> 
> Mike:
> No, in order for him to be bigoted he needs to favor pure-bloods 
over 
> Muggleborns. You were the one that said Slughorn picked kids for 
> bloodline. So why doesn't he pick the pure-blood Ron over the 
> Muggleborn Hermione? Unless, of course that isn't the criteria 
> Slughorn uses for picking members of his club.

Magpie:
Slughorn's criteria for picking people for his club is that he 
thinks you're going to be rich and famous. He favors anybody with 
more chance of being that. It's "funny" how it "sometimes works out" 
that the rich and famous are Muggle-borns, because by default the 
Pure-bloods ought to be more magical. Not only Muggle-borns suffer 
from Slughorn's attitude, but being one will probably make it more 
likely you're one of the nobodies.


> > Magpie: 
> > That's not what he does. That's not the way bigotry works in our 
> > world either. It just seems bizarre to me to either say "He 
can't 
> > be a bigot--he didn't invite Ron into his club!" or "He can't be 
a 
> > bigot--he let Hermione and Lily in!" I don't think bigotry's 
that 
> > simple. 
> 
> Mike:
> I'm obviously not primed to see bigotry as easily as you do. And I 
do 
> see prejudice in Slughorn's attitude. I don't find it plausible 
that 
> Slughorn is both a bigot against Muggleborns and at the same time 
> invites Muggleborns into his club. This is his club, something he 
> does above and beyond his duties as a teacher, something noone has 
a 
> right to tell him what the compositional makeup must be. And 
still, 
> he selects students he's bigoted towards? The plausibility runs 
out 
> for me.


Magpie:
Yeah, that seems to basically be it. I couldn't agree more strongly 
that this is the central issue. I not only think it's plausible but 
logical that Slughorn can promote Muggle-borns for his own advantage 
while being a bigot. Yes, he can select students he's bigoted 
towards. There is nothing unusual in that whatsoever. I also would 
not just say the club is something he does "above and beyond" his 
duties as a teacher. His club to me seems like something that 
interferes fundamentally with his duties as a teacher.

-m