Likeable Slughorn (was: Villain!Dumbledore )

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 177848

> Magpie:
> <snip>
> 
> I mean, this is all obviously coded at least some of the time as 
> being "like racism" and it's not too uncommon for bigots to say 
> that other races are just more violent or less intelligent while 
> saying this doesn't make them less good as people. 

Mike:
I said earlier that I don't agree with your assessment as code for 
racism. Ethnicity as in the way Nazis treated the Jews, that seems to 
be the coding you're speaking of, to me.


> Magpie:
> Slughorn's a teacher. His job is teaching these kids magic. He 
> has different expectations based on their blood--and teachers can
> do a lot of damage with low expectations. <snip>

Mike:
Where's the canon that Slughorn treats Muggleborn students different 
than his other students? IIRC, Slughorn is impressed with Hermione 
before he realizes she is the Muggleborn top-of-the-class. From the 
conversation in HBP Ch 4, that seems to have been the case with Lily, 
too. Slughorn seems to have taken the measure of the student *before* 
he has any knowledge of their blood status. Did we see Slughorn ask 
or find out the blood status of any other students? Not that I recall.



> Magpie:
> "Welcome to my class, John. I don't think you're a bad person, but 
> I don't expect you to do as well in my class as the students with 
> better blood--the ones I'm automatically inviting into my special 
> club designed to network them into the positions of power in 
> society because they've got powerful relatives." 

Mike:
You read that type of greeting where? Or you have imagined that's 
what Slughorn is *thinking*? But still, this is prejudice, not 
bigotry, in my reading of the terms.

You saw Slughorn inviting only white, male pure-bloods into the 
Slugclub? Only Slytherins?



> Magpie:
> I don't see how "not good at the thing upon which our entire 
> society is based" isn't disfavor. Especially since haven't people 
> actually looked at the bad effect this kind of attitude has on 
> students? <snip>

Mike:
It's only disfavor if Slughorn acts upon it. In what part of either 
book have you found Slughorn acting upon his prejudicial 
inclinations? Because contrary to acting upon his prejudice, I saw 
him invite one Muggleborn into his Slug Club and covet another for 
her talents, wishing she were in his House. Which Muggleborn did you 
see him exclude for his/her blood status? Which Muggleborn did you 
see him treat "disfavorably" because of their blood status?



> Magpie:
> I don't see anything in the actual world-building to say this is a 
> generational thing. Asking me to superimpose my own world's history 
> on it to excuse him seems a bit sloppy. 

Mike:
But you are willing to superimpose our world's racism on this topic. 
I'm suppose to see those parallels, while you deny the generational 
parallels. Just because Godric Gryffindor championed Muggle and 
Muggleborn rights (BTW, where does this come from? I don't remember 
reading this in the books) doesn't mean they thought pure-bloods 
weren't more talented. What makes a wizard "powerfully magical"? Was 
pure-blood=more magical all snobbery/bigotry or was there a trace of 
truth to it, or a perceived belief? We don't know either of these. 
It's all conjecture when trying to discern the history of these 
beliefs.



> Magpie:
> I think Slughorn can have a problem with his attitude even if he 
> doesn't ask every specific student his/her bloodline before he 
> compliments them. He looks for students he thinks will reflect well 
> on him. There are a number of things that can make him think they 
> will. Not all of them are blood related, but some are. 

Mike:
Not me.



> Magpie:
> So in order for Slughorn to possibly be bigoted to you he has to 
> pick every Pureblood and have nothing but Purebloods in his club?

Mike:
No, in order for him to be bigoted he needs to favor pure-bloods over 
Muggleborns. You were the one that said Slughorn picked kids for 
bloodline. So why doesn't he pick the pure-blood Ron over the 
Muggleborn Hermione? Unless, of course that isn't the criteria 
Slughorn uses for picking members of his club.


> Magpie: 
> That's not what he does. That's not the way bigotry works in our 
> world either. It just seems bizarre to me to either say "He can't 
> be a bigot--he didn't invite Ron into his club!" or "He can't be a 
> bigot--he let Hermione and Lily in!" I don't think bigotry's that 
> simple. 

Mike:
I'm obviously not primed to see bigotry as easily as you do. And I do 
see prejudice in Slughorn's attitude. I don't find it plausible that 
Slughorn is both a bigot against Muggleborns and at the same time 
invites Muggleborns into his club. This is his club, something he 
does above and beyond his duties as a teacher, something noone has a 
right to tell him what the compositional makeup must be. And still, 
he selects students he's bigoted towards? The plausibility runs out 
for me.



> Magpie:
> But apparently not intending us to draw any real life parallels to 
> the guy thinking Muggle-borns aren't as magical (being more or less 
> magical being the most important thing in this universe) being 
> bigotry even though elsewhere it's an insult to suggest Muggle-
> borns are more like Muggles than Witches. So it wouldn't be bigotry 
> to say that somebody of a certain race is likely to not do well in 
> school because of their race.

Mike:
Which race do you have in mind? You keep wanting to bring in race to 
this issue, and yet I see no racial problems in the Potterverse. We 
have never been given any distinctions in abilities based on race, be 
they caucasian, black, Asian, Middle Eastern, aboriginal, or any 
other racial classifications you would choose. There seems to be most 
all races in Hogwarts, yet very little is said about race and next to 
nothing depends on race.



> Magpie:
> I think we give him credit when he actually does it and starts 
> treating kids in his class as students he's there to help learn--
> which doesn't seem to be something he'll be doing. We all know he's 
> singled out Lily as one of those exceptional Muggle-borns who rose 
> above her natural inadequacies.

Mike:
Canon, please. Which kid or kids did he treat differently because of 
their blood status? Or I should say treated poorly, because he seems 
to have treated Lily better *despite* her blood status.


> Magpie:
> Seeing a "good Muggle-born" is not seeing past your bigotry and 
> seeing that they're "just as good." And I think Slughorn acts on 
> his prejudices every day. Every time he steps into a class with the 
> attitude of "well, the Muggle-borns naturally have less potential"

Mike:
Seeing past his prejudice, not acting bigoted is how I've 
characterized Slughorn's attitude. And since I don't think Slughorn 
acts on his prejudice, we are at an impasse. I would still like some 
canon example of Slughorn "acting on his prejudices". I do not think 
I am asking for proof of a negative here.



> Magpie:
> 
> Maybe Slughorn has changed his attitudes--I've no evidence that he 
> has since I didn't know him in the past. He's certainly better than 
> Tom Riddle. But if this is the best Slytherin has to offer, I still 
> don't see anything admirable here. 

Mike:
As I said in my response to Adam, I neither care to find an admirable 
(likeable) Slytherin, nor was I looking for one in the first place. 
Slytherin was never a House of admirable characters for me. Neither 
was finding a "good Slytherin" a priority of mine, though I would 
classify Slughorn as one, prejudices and all.

If you see Slughorn has bigoted to the end, I doubt you would have 
devined any change from his previous attitudes. I don't see him as 
bigoted, but his present day demeanor and language along with his 
attitude towards Muggleborns with talent in the present bespeaks of a 
change from his previous attitudes to me.

Mike