Likeable Slughorn (was: Villain!Dumbledore )

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 177858

> Irene:
 
> Going back to your examples, I just can't see the equivalence 
between what he says and the real world "You are so clever for a black 
person" bigotry. His surprise is akin to a surprise of two short 
parents producing a 2.15m tall NBA player. Sure, can happen, but more 
surprising than if both parents were tall.
> 
> To reiterate - yes, it's very petty that we had 7 books, some of 
them excessively huge, and yet the message is so muddled that we have 
to sit here and split these hairs. I don't normally require my 
literature to have messages, I even prefer it not to, but JKR very 
obviously wanted to say something about bigotry and prejudice. It did 
not work out very well, IMO.

Magpie:
Yes, I guess that's it. I mean, it seems like the one prejudice that's 
really cared about is the one against Muggle-borns since that's 
Voldemort's and they're Wizards. It is surprising, surely, when two 
Muggles produce a magical child at all (and it's true that JKR saying 
that they have a magical relative somewhere sort of goes against the 
idea that magic is anything like creativity that can show up in any 
one; you do need to be a member of the club, even if you don't know 
it). But the fact that it's surprising that Muggles produce a Witch 
does not necessarily make it surprising that they produce a Witch 
who's as good as one born to Wizards.

But within canon it seems like thinking that Muggle-borns aren't as 
good is supposed to be wrong. That you can be just as good a Wizard no 
matter what you're bloodline. In CoS this disagreement is made 
explicit with Lucius saying Draco should be ashamed to be beaten by 
Hermione who has "no wizard family," Ron saying only people like the 
Malfoys think that way while the rest of them know all the blood stuff 
is rubbish. We're in the pov of a kid who's a Half-blood and who 
explicitly notes that his being brought up culturally as a Muggle does 
not put him behind other students. On the contrary, he's advantaged 
with special powers cropping up throughout the series. 

There's no difference at all made between Muggle-born kids and other 
kids. Dean isn't even sure what he is, and no one can tell. We've got 
exceptional Pure-bloods--James and Sirius, exceptional Half-bloods--
Harry, Snape, Tom Riddle, exceptional Muggle-borns--Hermione, Lily. 
There's no place where we can tell what someone's background is based 
on their parents. In fact, most if not all of the poorest Wizards we 
know are Purebloods. Where does the idea that Muggle-borns should have 
less potential come from? The only place I remember it being said is 
by various Slytherins, with nothing said about actual proof or 
reasoning. Hermione is insulted by being called Muggle.

Ironically in my experience in fandom people who have argued that 
perhaps Pure-blood superiority was based on truth (either the truth 
that Muggle-borns are dangerous or that they are inferior) have been 
mocked and called Nazis. 

I just really think something's wrong when this is the central trait 
of the bad guy, the bad idea he appeals to in people, yet we're 
defending it in the end due to Slughorn.  

I have just as many problems with making it an good analogy to racism 
in our world as anyone else. I know it's not the same thing. I don't 
think "Mudblood" is the same as "N*****" at all (you can't divorce the 
word from the history), I don't think Muggle-borns work really as a 
race or as an ethnicity, or even as an immigrant group the way they're 
portrayed. I find the whole question of their place in the world 
poorly thought-out, underwritten and vague, a mish mosh for whatever's 
needed at that moment.

But still, the idea of going into a class where the teacher thinks 
you've got less potential because of your parents? That sounds very 
much like what minorities deal with. I don't see how that's not being 
thought of as inferior, and I doubt it's not going to lead to be 
treated that way in subtle ways--even if you're being pushed for your 
talents--this happens all the time. Even Mike's analogy of saying 
something like "a Jewish track star--that's unusual." In many contexts 
that's a fine point to make. I remember that joke in Airplane! where 
somebody asks for "light reading" and is given a single page folded 
pamphlet on "famous Jewish sports legends." That does not come across 
at all as sleazy as Slughorn's promotion of himself in HBP.

But that still doesn't seem to me to equate to being thought of as 
less inherently magical in a world obsessed with being magical, where 
being magical is the basis of everything. It's what makes you not a 
Muggle, not a Squib. It's what makes Neville's family drop him on his 
head. It's pretty much the only thing that matters, and I thought it 
was supposed to be important that having Muggle parents *didn't* make 
you any less magical. And being magical is what matters.

Alla:
And that I do not care – WHY he cultivates the talent. To me it is
enough that he **cultivates** the talent. If he gets something for
himself as well, I say more power to him. I think that his talented
students also get a lot out of it and I like it.

Magpie:
He cultivates talent if it will help him. And he cultivates plenty of 
otehr things that are equally important to him, like family 
connections--these things can be more important than talent depending 
on the situation. That's why to me focusing on "he promotes talent!" 
seems to me to be wanting him to be something he isn't. He's fine 
promoting people with good bloodlines over people with talent if 
talent hasn't gotten them into the Slug Club to begin with. I also 
don't think his excluding Draco should be taken as the kind of sign it 
seems taken as. He doesn't want kids of Death Eaters because he's 
afraid of Death Eaters. I don't see that means anything more than 
that. I don't think it's a big deal any time he doesn't put a 
Pureblood in his club.

Nor does he cultivate the talent that I see, he just networks people 
that catch his eye. At least that's not what I consider cultivating 
talent. Sometimes talented kids get perks from Slughorn, that's great. 
That doesn't make him "the teacher who cultivates talent" for me by a 
longshot. To me he seems like he's probably far more likely to be 
helping to fill jobs with those who are well-connected already over 
those who might be more talented. That's how Cormac seems to see it 
too.

-m