CHAPDISC: DH5, Fallen Warrior

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 178015

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> Chapter 5, Fallen Warrior

<snip most of Mike's entertaining summary, cleverly "divisa in tres
partes">

Mike:
The Tonks worry over their daughter, Dora (teehee), and Harry,
suddenly remembering the portkey, promises them he'll have Tonks – er,
Dora (teehee) – send word. 

Carol:
"Dora" means "gift," so I find the use of the nickname touching. Also,
the use of pet names (Dora and Dromeda) seems to suggest affection and
closeness. Just my take on the Tonks family.
> 
> Part I Questions:
> 
> 1. What did you think of Harry's greeting of Andromeda when she came in?

Carol:
I suppose it was a gut reaction and he was under stress, but it must
have hurt Andromeda's feelings. I can only hope, based on the later
closeness of Teddy to the Potter family, that poor Andromeda (who lost
a husband, a daughter, and a son-in-law within a few months) became
part of the family, too. 
> 
> 2. The big question: This is the only time we meet Andromeda Black 
Tonks. Was it enough along, with the other background we know of her,
to label her a "good Slytherin"?

Carol:
IMO, yes. She obviously loves her daughter and raised her well, and
she acts as a healer to Hagrid. She and her Muggle-born husband (for
whose sake she has lost all contact with her birth family) have risked
a great deal in providing a safe house for Harry and Hagrid (their
house seems to have been specially chosen as the one that Harry would
fly to). Her family are all DEs or Voldie supporters. (Poor 'Dromeda.
Sorted into the wrong house.) Seriously, I think she parallels the
Good Samaritan (as does Regulus, whom Harry expects to have forced
Kreacher to drink the potion, judging him as a Slytherin and therefore
evil, in Harry's view. Harry and the reader learn otherwise.) i know
that others disagree, but IMO Harry's brief exposure Andromeda Tonks
(whose "householdy" spells and healing talents tie her to Molly
Weasley and, oddly, to Fleur) is a step toward seeing Slytherins and
former Slytherins as people. See my previous posts on this subject.
> 
> 3. In your eyes, was this enough grieving for Hedwig?

Carol:
Well, yes and no. Hedwig has been Harry's friend and companion for
years. and yet I can understand Harry's not mentioning her to Mrs.
Weasley later in the chapter. They have enough death and suffering to
worry about. I'm glad that Harry thinks of Hedwig occasionally later
with a twinge of guilt and regret. True, she's "only" a pet, but they
were friends. I suppose it's healthy not to dwell on her death, and
especially on blowing up the sidecar after she was already dead, but
I'd be sad if he forgot her altogether. As I've said elsewhere, her
death (and the loss of the Firebolt) signifies the end of Harry's
childhood and foreshadows greater losses to come. (Do owls have souls?
If not, "she had a good life" [and died painlessly] is all the
consolation Harry can be given.)
> 
> 4. Whimsy Question: What did you think of Ted Tonks' description?

Carol:
Well, you didn't quote it so I had to look it up: "a fair-haired,
big-bellied man." He sounds like a younger Slughorn (except that we
already know him to be "a right old slob" in contrast to the
comfort-loving, somewhat fastidious Slughorn), but he's obviously a
quicker thinker and handier with healing. (He wouldn't have stood
helplessly watching Ron turn purple from poison.) Later, we learn that
he has a gentle voice. I liked Ted Tonks a lot, actually (even though,
like everyone else, he misjudged Snape, as we learn later). I think
that JKR could add him to her very short list of good fathers in the
HP books.

Mike: 
> Part II – The Seven Potters Regroup
> 
> Harry and Hagrid are greeted by Molly and Ginny. They sort out who 
else is back (nobody yet), who should have been back (Ron, Tonks, 
Fred, and Arthur) and who's suppose to arrive next (Lupin and 
George). <snip>

Carol:
Mike, dear, there's a "d" in "supposed [to]." It's a past participle.
Forgive me, but I keep noticing that you tend to leave it out.
<blushes for the McGonagall moment>

> Part II Questions:
> 
> 5.  What do you think of the security checks, especially Lupin's 
check for the real Harry? Did it raise any red flags when Lupin failed
to check Tonks and Ron?

Carol:
I thought that the security checks were a strange contrast to HBP, in
which DD didn't take them seriously (the raspberry jam remark), Harry
thought the Ministry protections were pointless, and the Molly/Arthur
"Mollywobbles" moment provides a moment of poignant humor (in which I
felt sorry for both Mrs. Weasley and Harry). I suppose the fact that
Kingsley and Lupin are suddenly taking them seriously indicates that
the situation has worsened (which the reader knew already), but I
didn't like the harsher Lupin of this chapter. I didn't notice that he
failed to check Tonks and Ron, but I certainly noticed the contrast
between his white face and her joy in seeing him. It didn't bode well
for the happiness of the couple, and Lupin's behavior seemed OoC.
> 
> 6.  Do you buy Lupin's pronouncement that Expelliarmus has become 
Harry's signature spell? Or is that just foreshadowing? What about
Sectumsempra as Snape's signature spell? 

Carol:
I'm not sure about Expelliarmus as Harry's signature spell (it does
explain why the unnamed DE went for Voldemort, but it seems like just
a regulation DADA spell to me and more humane than Stupefy at 500 feet
(or whatever) above the ground. I liked Harry better than the new
bloodthirsty, vengeful Lupin at that moment. I also liked having a
spell that Snape taught Harry (and others) being important, but it's
been important since Ron or Harry used it on Lockhart in CoS and came
in handy again in GoF and OoP, not to mention that Draco had used it
on DD. I didn't suspect foreshadowing relating to Expelliarmus (which
was bound to be important, regardless) so much as something related to
Harry's wand acting on its own later in the chapter. *There* I clearly
saw foreshadowing (though I couldn't have foreseen anything like the
complicated wand subplot it was setting up).

As for Lupin saying that Sectumsempra was Snape's signature spell,
IMO, that's ridiculous. If he'd used Sectumsempra (other than the
rudimentary form that caused a minor cut on James's cheek in SWM) at
Hogwarts, he'd have been expelled. And Lupin didn't know that Snape
was a DE until the Order reformed between GoF and OoP. That was one of
the moments when I wanted to shake Lupin (and I wondered whether *he*
was the traitor, trying to make Snape look as bad as possible, as he'd
also done in the hospital wing in HBP). But I also wondered whether
Rowling was having one of her memory lapses (like the one in HBP where
Hermione claims that all the DEs were using Levicorpus on the Muggles
when only one of them used it or Ron, also in HBp, somehow knows about
Draco's Hand of Glory, which Draco wished for but Lucius did not buy
in CoS in a scene where Ron was not present). 

Anyway, I didn't like the Lupin of this chapter at all for many
reasons and was prepared for some plot twist involving him. I suppose
he was a red herring of sorts since there wasn't any traitor, only
Confundungus apparently having contact with Snape, either Imperiused
or under the (correct) impression that Snape was on their side under
deep cover. More questions left unanswered by JKR.
> 
Mike:
> 7.  How did you like this waiting and wondering what's happened to
everyone? Did you feel the suspense of the situation or were you 
annoyed it was taking so long? When George showed up all bloody, did
that make you more fearful for the missing remainder of the group?

Carol:
I thought that the waiting and the tension was very realistic and it
increased the suspense.
> 
> 8.  What did you think of the way Lupin greeted Tonks? Did you find
something odd about their whole interaction?

Carol:
Essentially, I wondered whether he was angry because he loved her and
was being overprotective (she's an Auror, after all) or whether he
didn't love her at all and should not have married her. As I said, he
seemed OoC in this whole chapter. He's clearly not at his best in a
crisis to put it kindly. ESW!Lupin suspecting and blaming everybody
but himself? I liked him much better when he was holding Harry back
from following sirius Black through the Veil in OoP.
> 
> 9.  Mad-Eye, the Fallen Warrior. Did you see this coming? Did you 
think it would be Mad-Eye? What did this portend for the Order when
their toughest, most skilled member gets killed in their first action
 without Dumbledore? <snip>

Carol:
I thought that "Fallen Warrior" referred to Hagrid, who seems to be
dead at the end of the previous chapter. Like Harry, I was surprised
that Mad-Eye, who had survived so much, would be the one to die. It
reminded me of his words to the guard in OoP "if any of us is killed."
Should have known that was foreshadowing. In retrospect, it's not
surprising that Voldemort would go after him rather than Hagrid, whom
he would see as inept.
> 
> 10. Whimsy Question: Have you got a better joke than George's?

Carol:
No, but I loved George for his sense of humor and his courage. Who
else could accept defacement with such grace? And I felt sick and sad
that the "We're identical" joke (made when they were both "skinny,
specky gits") could never be repeated. I also liked Fred's concern for
his brother. And I don't even like the Twins.
> 
Part III Questions:
> 
> 11.  Though Bill seems to exonerate Mundungus from being the
betrayer, the group still seems to blame him for Moody's death. Does 
this sound reasonable?

Carol:
Well, Fleur insinuates that the traitor is Hagrid, or, rather, that
he's accidentally let key information slip, as he's done before. But,
yes, it does seem reasonable that they'd suspect *someone*, especially
someone who wasn't there, whose cowardice resulted in Mad-Eye's death,
and they have no way of knowing that there is no traitor: Snape's
revelation of the time and date was part of DD's plan. As for
Mad-eye's death, Mundungus has a point when he later tells Harry that
Voldemort was coming right at him and he'd have been killed if he
hadn't Disapparated. What was he supposed to do, die in the line of
duty? Mad-eye, in contrast, went down with the ship like a good
captain. Maybe his plan was at fault, but the person to blame for
Mad-Eye's death was Voldie himself, adding yet another notch to his belt.
> 
> 12.  In OotP, Molly accuses Sirius of thinking of Harry as the
second coming of James. What about Lupin and his bringing up how Harry
is being like James, again? (Remember in HBP, the "furry little
problem" quip). Is Lupin guilty of seeing too much of James in Harry,
or is it just natural to see something of the father in the son?

Carol:
Interesting question. Of course, Molly is right that Black sees James
in Harry, as does Snape, and both of them are (mostly) wrong, just as
Lupin is wrong to think that Harry shouldn't trust his friends because
of James's mistake in doing the same thing. But what concerns me is
not Lupin's seeing the father in the son (along with almost every
other adult) but his failure to see that Harry is right and he, Lupin,
is wrong. One of Voldemort's favorite tactics is sowing mistrust among
friends, and Lupin is succumbing to it (not to mention his mistrust of
himself, which we'll see in a later chapter).
> 
> 13.  What did you think of Harry's pronouncement that he needed to 
leave? Was this just another irrational Harry saving-people thing? 
What was the purpose of having Harry come up with these musings? (No,
really, I want to know!)

Carol:
I'm afraid I won't be much help, but I thought it was just Harry being
Harry, trying to do things on his own that he's really not capable of
doing alone in a well-intentioned but foolish attempt to protect
others. Harry has trouble delegating authority and lacks confidence in
his friends. He still doesn't get that he and Ron and Hermione are a
team (despite Ron's later defection and return, they need each other).
He's being Dumbledorish, trying to do everything by himself. He
doesn't fully learn his lesson until he lets the DA help him much
later and assigns Neville the task of killing Nagini if he fails to do
it himself. 
> 
> 14.  Did you think the self-spelling wand was going to go somewhere?
Did you get that it *was* the wand, or did you think it really was
coming from Harry?

Carol:
It was clear that the "self-spelling wand" was important, if not
crucial, and, yes, I believed Harry since he hadn't aimed the wand.
I've always thought that wands were sentient, but not to that degree.
And I liked Harry's acknowledgment that it wasn't his own power, that
he wasn't a match for Voldemort, accidental magic or otherwise. But,
of course, I would much rather that moment hadn't happened and
Voldemort's hunt for the Elder Wand had been postponed or had never
happened. (Imagine him with "Lucius's poor stick" for the rest of the
book! Actually, I think he should have used his own wand for
everything except trying to kill Harry, and that should not have
happened till the final confrontation. But, then, Voldie would have
wreaked havoc in England, and another set of people would have died.
Too bad Harry's wand didn't knock him off his broom and turn him into
Vapormort till the Horcruxes were destroyed.)
> 
> 15.  The VoldeVision is Back! Is Hermione's fear rational? For that
matter, was Dumbledore's advice/plan in OotP rational, or was he 
making excuses for his well established penchant for secrecy? That is,
should Harry ever have been trying to shut out theses visions, or had
just been told that they are usually real visions but that they 
*could* be fake visions projected by LV for Harry's consumption?

Carol:
Good question. Of course, the Occlumency lessons in OoP were intended
to keep Voldie out of Harry's mind and not vice versa, and that's no
longer necessary. Also, of course, Harry does eventually learn to
control the visions. But, painful as the visions are physically and
psychologically, they do seem to be more useful in DH than in previous
books, especially near the end when he knows that Voldemort has found
out about the Horcruxes. And if Harry hadn't followed Voldie to the
Shrieking Shack, snape would have died for nothing. (They're also
useful to the reader, giving us glimpses of characters we wouldn't see
otherwise.) Hermione can't know that they'll be useful, so her fear is
understandable, but I think she's confusing the situation in OoP with
the entirely different situation in DH. Essentially, IMO, Harry should
have learned Occlumency, but he should also know when to apply it and
when to allow the visions to reveal key information. In the end, it's
luck more than skill that helps him.
> 
> 16.  Whimsy Question: What was the Thestral *grazing* on?

Carol: Maybe JKR was sleeping again? Or maybe the Thestral was
munching on Gnomes?
> 
Carol, thanking Mike for his delightful handling of this exciting and
important chapter and hoping he didn't mind the little grammar lesson
I sneaked in