CHAPDISC: DH5, Fallen Warrior

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 178023

> > 1. What did you think of Harry's greeting of Andromeda when she 
> > came in?
> 
> Carol:
> I suppose it was a gut reaction and he was under stress, but it must
> have hurt Andromeda's feelings.  <snip>

Mike:
I've been holding off adding my two knuts, but I have to put 
something in here on my favorite questions.

I was really pissed at Harry for the way he greeted Andromeda. He 
knew he was going to the Tonks. He knew that Andromeda was Sirius' 
favorite cousin and was well aware that she was the sister of 
Bellatrix and Narcissa. He's now in the house, talking to Ted Tonks 
and already been told of the protective spells and that "the wife" 
was tending to Hagrid. He knew she was going to be there, that had 
just probably saved or repaired Hagrid, and was putting herself in 
harms way by offering up their home as one of the safe houses. I'm 
sorry, I thought it was inexcusable to treat the woman that way.



> > 2. Was it enough along, with the other background we 
> > know of her, to label her a "good Slytherin"?
> 
> Carol:
> IMO, yes. 

Mike: I agree.


> Carol:
> Mike, dear, there's a "d" in "supposed [to]." 

Mike:
LOL! Shades of the pronunciation thread on OTC. I'm guilty of 
spelling it like I pronounce it, and I always fail to pronounce 
the "d". I know better, and I know it's frustrating for others.
Mea Culpa.



> > 5.  What do you think of the security checks, especially Lupin's 
> > check for the real Harry? Did it raise any red flags when Lupin 
> > failed to check Tonks and Ron?
> 
> Carol:
> I thought that the security checks were a strange contrast to HBP, 
> in which DD didn't take them seriously (the raspberry jam remark), 
<snip
> I didn't notice that he failed to check Tonks and Ron, <snip>

Mike:
With all the pre-DH speculation on who the new traitor would be, I 
thought that this was the hint that Tonks would be assuming that 
role. But then I realized that this security checking was guarding 
solely against Polyjuiced!Someone. Which snapped me back to Lupin's 
original check for Polyjuiced!Harry.

How would the bad guys be able to Polyjuice Harry if they didn't have 
something of Harry? And if they had something of Harry, wouldn't that 
mean they had caught Harry? If the whole aim of Voldemort and the DEs 
was to capture or kill Harry, why would they bother to Polyjuice 
someone into Harry and forward him to the Order? Lastly, Polyjuice 
doesn't work on Hagrid. And yet, there he stands next to Harry whom 
he left with. How exactly were the DEs supposed to <wink> have taken 
the real Harry and substituted a PJed Harry on the one and only 
Hagrid?

I must concur with Carol, Lupin was falling prey to hysteria and/or 
allowing the distrust that Voldemort famously spreads to get to him. 
Maybe someone should have told him what Dumbledore said at his GoF 
end-of-year speech?!


Mike: OK, I admit it. I wrote this question with Carol in mind. :D
> > 6.  What about Sectumsempra as Snape's signature spell? 
> 
> Carol:
> As for Lupin saying that Sectumsempra was Snape's signature spell,
> IMO, that's ridiculous. If he'd used Sectumsempra at Hogwarts, 
> he'd have been expelled. And Lupin didn't know that Snape was a 
> DE until the Order reformed between GoF and OoP. That was one of 
> the moments when I wanted to shake Lupin (and I wondered whether 
> *he* was the traitor, trying to make Snape look as bad as possible, 
> as he'd also done in the hospital wing in HBP). <snip>

Mike:
I had always assumed that Severus used Sectumsempra at school, it was 
his invention after all. But I also assumed he was smart enough not 
to use it on sentient beings, including untransformed werewolves. So 
this became another instance where Lupin is talking nonsense to me. 
When I combine all the nonsensical pronouncements he had come up with 
in this series with his maniacal search for the traitor in this 
chapter, well, Pippin's ESE!Lupin started to look more promising 
about here.


> > 8.  What did you think of the way Lupin greeted Tonks? Did you 
> > find something odd about their whole interaction?
> 
> Carol:
> Essentially, I wondered whether he was angry because he loved her 
> and was being overprotective (she's an Auror, after all) or whether 
> he didn't love her at all and should not have married her.

Mike:
My thoughts exactly. Lupin is feeling twinges of buyer's remorse. 
I'm thinking Lupin was bullied into marriage and his whole weak 
personality is coming out in these pages.


> Carol:
> ESE!Lupin suspecting and blaming everybody but himself? 

Mike: Ditto.


> > 11.  Though Bill seems to exonerate Mundungus from being the
> > betrayer, the group still seems to blame him for Moody's death. 
> > Does this sound reasonable?
> 
> Carol:
> As for Mad-eye's death, Mundungus has a point when he later tells 
> Harry that Voldemort was coming right at him and he'd have been 
> killed if he hadn't Disapparated. What was he supposed to do,
> die in the line of duty?

Mike:
Once again, I agree. Sure, Dung should have stayed and fought, if he 
was a brave soul. And if he had ever exhibited those traits before, I 
would have been disappointed. But when had Dung ever been brave? Why 
would anybody think he was reliable, brave, self-sacrificing, etc?

> Carol:
> ... but the person to blame for Mad-Eye's death was Voldie 
> himself, adding yet another notch to his belt.

Mike:
And once again, all the characters seem to not notice who they were 
facing and how scared 99.99% of the WW was of him.


> > 13.  What was the purpose of having Harry come up with these
> >  musings? (No, really, I want to know!)
> 
> Carol:
> I'm afraid I won't be much help, but I thought it was just Harry 
> being Harry, trying to do things on his own that he's really not 
> capable of doing alone in a well-intentioned but foolish attempt to 
> protect others. Harry has trouble delegating authority and lacks 
> confidence in his friends. He still doesn't get that he and Ron and 
> Hermione are a team. 
> He's being Dumbledorish, trying to do everything by himself. He
> doesn't fully learn his lesson until he lets the DA help him much
> later and assigns Neville the task of killing Nagini if he fails to 
> do it himself.

Mike:
I suppose yours is as good as I'm going to get. I really don't get 
Harry's thinking here. It's just so irrational from my point of view. 
He wants to make the whole evenings travails pointless by leaving? 
And go where?



> > 15.  The VoldeVision is Back! Is Hermione's fear rational? For
> > that matter, was Dumbledore's advice/plan in OotP rational, or
> > was he making excuses for his well established penchant for 
> > secrecy? That is, should Harry ever have been trying to shut out 
> > these visions, or had just been told that they are usually real 
> > visions but that they *could* be fake visions projected by LV 
> > for Harry's consumption?
> 
> Carol:
> Good question. Of course, the Occlumency lessons in OoP were 
> intended to keep Voldie out of Harry's mind and not vice versa, and 
> that's no longer necessary. Also, of course, Harry does eventually 
> learn to control the visions. 

Mike:
Could you tell that I disagreed completely with Dumbledore's original 
plan for dealing with this "special connection" of Harry's? Harry 
already knew from CoS onward that Voldie had put "a bit of himself" 
into Harry. Then he was told in OotP that there was this special 
connection, and still they didn't tell him and he didn't figure out 
it was a soul piece. So why couldn't they just tell him that Voldie 
has the ability to control what Harry sees, that Voldie is a master 
manipulator and this is something he can manipulate?

Dumbledore admitted to the mistake of not telling about the Prophesy, 
but he doesn't think he made a mistake regarding the Occlumency 
fiasco other than assigning Snape as the teacher of Harry. I disagree.


> Carol:
> But, painful as the visions are physically and psychologically,
> they do seem to be more useful in DH than in previous books, 
> especially near the end when he knows that Voldemort has found
> out about the Horcruxes. And if Harry hadn't followed Voldie to the
> Shrieking Shack, Snape would have died for nothing. (They're also
> useful to the reader, giving us glimpses of characters we wouldn't 
> see otherwise.) 

Mike:
And had they exploited Harry's visions in OotP as Harry was able to 
in DH, could DD and Snape not gained more information on LV that they 
wouldn't have had otherwise? "Hey Harry, if you get any of these 
visions you go straight to Professor Snape and tell him everything 
you see. Oh, forget about those Occlumency lessons." Additional 
information, Snape and Harry happier about the arraingments, and no 
new secrets revealed to Harry. Can I be Dumbledore now? LOL


> > 16.  Whimsy Question: What was the Thestral *grazing* on?

Mike: I like Zara's answer best, so far: Blood on the grass.