House Elves and War and peace WAS: Re: Harry's remark about Kreacher

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 178595


> Alla:
> 
> "If people do not like their 20 century hero owning a slave, they 
> just do not like it." Well, yeah. They just do not like it, this is 
> very true.
> 
> But sorry, the second part is just not working for me. I just gave 
> you an example of the novel where situation with the slaves was not 
> resolved either AND there was no hint whatsoever that it will be 
> resolved at all.
> 
> So, to me the comparison actually working very well. Loose 
> comparison obviously, but comparison nevertheless.

Magpie:
I don't see how it's not working. I said, 'If people don't like their 
20the century hero (meaning Harry) owning a slave, they just don't." 
Whether or not they like characters who live in the 19th century in a 
time when there actually would have owned slaves is a different 
issue, as is whether they'd like any other fantasy world with 
slavery. I think when they protest about Harry it's because of the 
way JKR presented it and how he is with it.

I don't assume things are changing the way I would in a historical 
novel where I *know* things will change because history has shown it 
to me. I don't see House Elves as shown as all that ugly in canon 
either. Harry himself moves in the opposite direction with them, 
starting out thinking the idea is strange and winding up being the 
Master of one.


Magpie:
But they, unlike the people based on real people in a historical 
novel, will never decide that they should fight for more, because 
they only exist in these pages. I don't even see any hint that it's 
an ugly issue. What's ugly about it according to anybody in canon, 
some of whom are like us? Hermione originally did but she seemed 
happy enough with it by the end. Harry doesn't seem to be shown as 
falling from grace when he gets a slave. On the contrary, it seems 
more like a good lesson when he sees the correct way to treat one.

Whether JKR thinks House Elves are in their proper place or not 
doesn't much matter since they don't exist outside this story. I 
don't think the ending suggests there's any big problem there.

> zgirnius:
> No, it says his bed *is* waiting for him, and he is *wondering* 
about 
> a sandwich. A certainty (the bed), and a wondering (the sandwich).
> 
> This does not seem convoluted at all to me, as it is a straight 
> recounting of what I thought when I read the book. 

Magpie:
If Harry is wondering if Kreacher will be bringing him a sandwich 
just because he sees he's not in the dining hall and so will follow 
him with it to his bed just in case he wants it, Harry's expecting 
even more from his slave than I thought. That doesn't make Harry 
seeing himself as any less of the entitled master than he would if by 
thinking Kreacher "might bring him" a sandwich he meant he might 
arrange that too.

zgirnius:
The meaning of the 
> line as far as I see it that Harry is exhausted and starving. In my 
> own experience, when I am in this condition, exhausted wins, hands 
> down, and it seems Harry is the same. I am not willing to exert 
> myself to get food. Likewise, Harry settles for his nice bed 
upstairs 
> in Gryffindor Tower (the one that we are told is definitely there 
and 
> lying waiting for him) and then it vaguely occurs to him that it is 
> possible, if he is lucky, that food will find him anyway through 
the 
> agency of Kreacher (the sandwich that he wonders about whether it 
> might appear).

Magpie:
If Harry's walking out thinking, "Even though I haven't even 
expressed any interest in a sandwich, perhaps my slave will just 
bring me one" that doesn't make Harry any less seeing Kreacher as his 
slave who lives to serve his needs and wishes.

zgirnus:
> He is going upstairs to sleep, as the passage indicates. If Harry 
> plans to summon Kreacher and order the sandwich, why does Harry 
> *wonder* whether Kreacher *might* do something? He knows quite well 
> that if he orders Kreacher to bring him a freshly baked steak-and-
> kidney pie, butterbeer, and treacle tart, these items *will* appear.
> 

Magpie:
I thought it was because he was still imagining what he (Harry) would 
do. He doesn't sound like he's doing anything but considering asking 
Kreacher for a sandwich there. He hasn't asked him for it yet, but 
he's considering asking, "Kreacher, might you bring me a sandwich?"

zgirnus:
> zgirnius:
> I do not understand how a vague wish is a weird demand. I like it 
> when my boyfriend surprises me with a gift or card or similar 
> gesture. If on a day when I am feeling particularly down, I hear 
his 
> car pull into the garage, am I being weirdly demanding when I 
wonder 
> whether today might be a day that he will so surprise me, because I 
> want something to cheer me up? I don't see the difference between 
my 
> wondering, and Harry's. 

Magpie:
You just answered why it's a weird demand to me. Because you're 
having Harry think about his slave elf like he's his boyfriend that 
he's thinking ought to know he's exhausted and bring him a sandwich 
because he loves him. For me the slave/master relationship makes 
spontaneous gift from boyfriend to girlfriend impossible.

zgirnus:
So I presume the fact that Kreacher is neatly 
> dressed and well-groomed, the house is sparkling, and Kreacher 
> endeavors to tempt Harry's palate with his favorite foods, to mean 
> that Kreacher has taken it upon himself to provide for Harry's 
> comfort.

Magpie:
Yes, because Kreacher loves being Harry's slave now. Whether or not 
Harry is going to ask for the sandwich or is merely hoping Kreacher 
will bring him what he wants without his having to ask for it, he's 
still counting on Kreacher to be his slave creature, which was the 
problem with the line. The only difference of opinion here is how 
entitled Harry has become about Kreacher. 

zgirnius:
> zgirnius:
> We are not told what Harry might or might not do if it turns out 
that 
> Kreacher does not bring Harry a sandwich. I presume he will sleep, 
> because he is very tired, and presume he will thereafter obtain 
food 
> in some way. I could be wrong, maybe he will summon Kreacher. But 
> this is by no means a fact stated in the text.
>

Magpie:
I still think Harry's "might" says that he's imagining asking 
Kreacher for a sandwich, and it never seemed to me that he was 
thinking anything else, but the point either is still that it's good 
to be a slave master. Whether Kreacher is expected to hop to when 
Harry calls him or show up with a sandwich just in case Master wants 
it that's the same.

va32h:

Because that's the way JK Rowling talks. If a person says "I wonder
if I might trouble you to hand me that pot of mustard" they aren't
literally contemplating the notion of whether they may or may not ask
you to hand them the mustard. They are asking you to hand over the
mustard and using a lot of extra words to do it (and I'm thinking this
is a British sort of thing to do, but British listies can correct me).

Harry is tired and thinking of his bed and then it occurs to him that
he has the means to get a sandwich *in* bed, via Kreacher.

Magpie:
That's how I read it.


-m