House Elves and War and peace WAS: Re: Harry's remark about Kreacher

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 178599

> Magpie:
> I don't see how it's not working. I said, 'If people don't like 
their 
> 20the century hero (meaning Harry) owning a slave, they just 
don't." 
> Whether or not they like characters who live in the 19th century 
in a 
> time when there actually would have owned slaves is a different 
> issue, as is whether they'd like any other fantasy world with 
> slavery. I think when they protest about Harry it's because of the 
> way JKR presented it and how he is with it.
> 
> I don't assume things are changing the way I would in a historical 
> novel where I *know* things will change because history has shown 
it 
> to me. I don't see House Elves as shown as all that ugly in canon 
> either. Harry himself moves in the opposite direction with them, 
> starting out thinking the idea is strange and winding up being the 
> Master of one.
<SNIP>


Alla:

That's right. But the distinction that you are making seem to be 
totally arbitrarily to me. You do not assume things will change with 
House elves the way you know things will change with serfs in War 
and Peace? Is that what you are seem to be saying?

Eh, Prince Andrey and Pierre Besuchov and other characters of War 
and Peace also do not exist beyond the pages of War and Peace, right?

The fact that in 1861 russian serfs were freed does not mean that in 
the world of War and Peace which ends in the second decade of the 
nineteenth century anything of the sort will happen. In fact, it 
does not happen.

Just as in Potterverse no elves are freed, just Harry treats his 
slave now nicely and maybe because of that some other people will.

But as I mentioned before through the novel (as you know) Tolstoy 
makes his main characters **attempting** to do something for serves 
which is done with different degree of success.

To me that ( even I knew nothing of Tolstoy's real life) shows that 
he cared very much about the issue.


Just as the fact of how Dumbledore treated Hogwarts elves and Dobby. 
what Hermione attempted to do with SPEW shows IMO that JKR cares 
about that topic.


Society of War and Peace is fictional society too, the fact that it 
is based on the real one in more real way does not mean to me that 
society of WW is not based on some real ways of how society develops.

On the contrary, it seems to me that the society is deliberately 
made to be very archaic and is bound to go through developments that 
many real societies did in the nineteenth century for example.


Does that make sense to you? I am not asking you to agree with me or 
to be convinced, I am asking you to see the logic behind my 
argument. 

In essense what I am saying is that this sentence of yours:

>I don't assume things are changing the way I would in a historical 
> novel where I *know* things will change because history has shown 
>it 
> to me.


is probably our key disagreement. I do not see how I can NOT make 
that assumption.


And what did you mean that people do not want another fantasy world 
with slavery??????

I am saying that just as in War and Peace this world does not have a 
satisfactory conclusion of elves storyline( to some people of 
course), because it sort of 
parallels real society development IMO. No concrete society, but 
sort of general metaphor so to speak.

JMO,

Alla.