Harry's remark about Kreacher WAS: Re: JKR messed up........ no.

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 178607

> Magpie:
> <snip>
> > Yes, but she also created a sentient slave race and eventually 
made 
> > her hero a slave owner. Harry can't "understand" the House Elves 
> > needs without accepting his own place as a master of slaves as a 
> > member of the superior race, the ones born to be served rather 
than 
> > serve. She's made a form of slavery that actually conforms to 
> > things that were claimed about real people (that they were 
better 
> > off being slaves and happier that way). 
> <snip>
> 
> Dana:
> House-elves are not JKR's creations they are mythological figures 
> said to inhabit houses and aid in tasks around the house. They are 
> referred to as Brownies. 

Magpie:
Of course they're JKR's creations. The fact that she based them on 
brownies doesn't change that or mean nobody can react to their 
servitude in any way the way they want. I know slavery is not as 
much of an issue in Britain as it is in America, and that the House 
Elves can also be seen as working class types, but I don't 
think "They're brownies and they're not based on American slaves at 
all!" is the last say in the matter. Harry's relation to House Elves 
(not brownies, with which he would not have any relationship if they 
followed the mythology) has a lot in common with the upper class 
person's towards their inferiors in society, be they slaves or 
working class, so it's not surprising people respond to them as 
such. Or that they just respond to them as they are in the story and 
not the way they're supposed to respond to brownies. I think the way 
they're depicted in canon have a lot more in common with that sort 
of thing than the folklore about brownies

Dana:
> 
> I understand your point of view but I just do not understand the 
> concept of your objection for house-elves to want to be allowed to 
do 
> what makes them happy. 

Magpie:
Then you don't understand my point of view, because I haven't argued 
anything about house elves not being allowed to do what makes them 
happy. I said it was guilt-free slavery with Harry being naturally 
deserving of a loyal slave and being waited on in bed while still 
being the champion of freedom because House Elves would actually 
fall apart and be miserable if they were freed. That's how JKR made 
them. I can find the fantasy being depicted obnoxious without 
being "disrespectful" of house elves or trying to force my own 
concept of living on house elves or claiming that people should be 
able to mistreat their servants. Harry's in a win-win situation 
here. He gets to be selfless by allowing himself to be waited on.


lla:
The fact that in 1861 russian serfs were freed does not mean that in
the world of War and Peace which ends in the second decade of the
nineteenth century anything of the sort will happen. In fact, it
does not happen.

Magpie:
If these people are living in Russia and in Russia the serfs were 
freed a few decades later then yes, I think people would assume this 
means it will happen, of course. 

Alla: 
Just as in Potterverse no elves are freed, just Harry treats his
slave now nicely and maybe because of that some other people will.

Magpie:
I'd assume there were people who treated them nicely anyway. Harry's 
behavior isn't very remarkable here.

Alla:
Society of War and Peace is fictional society too, the fact that it
is based on the real one in more real way does not mean to me that
society of WW is not based on some real ways of how society develops.

Magpie:
There is not equivalent of House Elves in our society. They're not 
people. They don't act like people. If they're the equivalent of 
dogs I don't see why I would assume that they're on their way to 
being freed. 

I do understand what you're saying about W&P's society. I just don't 
relate to that way of reading historical fiction. IF W&P ends in 
1825 Russia I assume I'm supposed to be using whatever knowledge I 
have of later Russia in reading the book.

Alla:
And what did you mean that people do not want another fantasy world
with slavery??????

Magpie:
I meant that there are lots of fantasy novels and I'm sure plenty of 
them include slaves. But how people react to the slaves in the novel 
is going to be different depending on how the world's created, how 
the characters react to them, etc. I don't have a problem with their 
being slaves in the WW, and I don't automatically assume that 
slave=specific group of slaves from history as Dana assumed I did. 

Alla:
Oh dear, I got carried away again. I wanted to stress that actually
I am not necessarily making this assumption either. What I am saying
though that through the novels JKR said enough to make me believe
that to leave house elves as slaves is NOT a happy ending for her.

Magpie:
Could very well be true, but my not liking Harry's attitude doesn't 
depend on me thinking that JKR likes House Elves that way. I don't 
really care one way or the other how she feels about House Elves as 
slaves. I know I didn't end the novel with any feeling that the 
position of House Elves needed to change in any way. She could still 
write a book in the Potterverse where it did, certainly, but I 
thought Harry's happy ending was taking his place at the top of his 
society. It's really wonderfully bookended with the beginning of the 
book where we're introduced to Vernon. Harry has taken Vernon's 
place, only he's far more deserving.

Rowena:
Frankly I don't see any problem with this. Harry *WONDERS* if
Kreacher *MIGHT* bring him a sandwich. He doesn't think 'I'll order a
sandwich from Kreacher'. Given that Kreacher works in the kitchens he
is the logical person to ask for food, not to mention being the only
House Elf Harry can easily get in touch with.

Magpie:
Huh? You said Harry's not ordering a sandwich from Kreacher, and 
then say that Kreacher works in the kitchens and is the logical 
person to ask for food, and the House Elf he can easily get in touch 
with. Doesn't that obviously indicate that Harry is planning on 
ordering the sandwich he wants with Kreacher? 

-m