Harry's remark about Kreacher WAS: Re: JKR messed up........ no.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 178609

> Alla:
> The fact that in 1861 russian serfs were freed does not mean that in
> the world of War and Peace which ends in the second decade of the
> nineteenth century anything of the sort will happen. In fact, it
> does not happen.
> 
> Magpie:
> If these people are living in Russia and in Russia the serfs were 
> freed a few decades later then yes, I think people would assume 
this 
> means it will happen, of course. 


Alla:

Why? Maybe Tolstoy in his mind was going alternative history route? 
Why would you assume that it is going to happen in one work of 
fiction ( if it is non fiction, obviously different story) and will 
not happen in another?

 
> Alla: 
> Just as in Potterverse no elves are freed, just Harry treats his
> slave now nicely and maybe because of that some other people will.
> 
> Magpie:
> I'd assume there were people who treated them nicely anyway. 
Harry's 
> behavior isn't very remarkable here.

Alla:

Dobby is saying something different to me, that many people were 
treating them badly, so I would say that Harry's behavior is not the 
majority behavior, but regardless I was not saying that it somehow 
remarkable, but just a sign of change. IMO anyways.


 
> Alla:
> Society of War and Peace is fictional society too, the fact that it
> is based on the real one in more real way does not mean to me that
> society of WW is not based on some real ways of how society 
develops.
> 
> Magpie:
> There is not equivalent of House Elves in our society. They're not 
> people. They don't act like people. If they're the equivalent of 
> dogs I don't see why I would assume that they're on their way to 
> being freed. 

Alla:

Wait a second, isn't it trying to have it both ways? You find the 
fact that sentinent beings are depicted as slaves distasteful, no? 
You find it looking like slavery and do not like Harry's attitude 
towards Kreacher sympathetic - asking him for a sandwitch, or 
thinking about it, etc.

But when I am arguing the similarities with many work of fiction ( 
well, one, but I can certainly bring up a plenty of nineteenth 
century russian fiction, where writers cared very much about serfs 
situation, but nothing was done at the end of it - Take Gogol works, 
take Nekrasov, take Chechov, any of them) that just as there, nothing 
changed at the end, but writers were displeased with people being 
enslaved, then elves are not like people anymore?

So, are they like dogs or are they like sentinent beings? And if they 
are like dogs, what IS wrong with their situation then?

If they ARE sentinent beings, how exactly my comparison is not valid?


> Alla:
> Oh dear, I got carried away again. I wanted to stress that actually
> I am not necessarily making this assumption either. What I am saying
> though that through the novels JKR said enough to make me believe
> that to leave house elves as slaves is NOT a happy ending for her.
> 
> Magpie:
> Could very well be true, but my not liking Harry's attitude doesn't 
> depend on me thinking that JKR likes House Elves that way. I don't 
> really care one way or the other how she feels about House Elves as 
> slaves. I know I didn't end the novel with any feeling that the 
> position of House Elves needed to change in any way. She could 
still 
> write a book in the Potterverse where it did, certainly, but I 
> thought Harry's happy ending was taking his place at the top of his 
> society. It's really wonderfully bookended with the beginning of 
the 
> book where we're introduced to Vernon. Harry has taken Vernon's 
> place, only he's far more deserving.
<SNIP>


Alla:

Ok, I am sorry, but I feel like you are switching the topic of 
conversation in the middle of it.

I thought we were arguing about whether that line of Harry, Kreacher 
and sandwitch shows whether house elves are in their proper place, 
did we not?

Did I not say initially that Harry's happy attitude is something that 
I see and that to me it is irrelevant to whether JKR cares about 
House elves' situation or not?

Sure, Harry's attitude is not something I like much here, but I 
thought the question was whether JKR shows the house elves situation 
as content or opened to interpretation.

So, we both do not like Harry's attitude here. I do not care about it.


My question is whether you see that JKR shows us that House elves' 
situation is not resolved, that it may be evolving OR NOT actually.

Do you see that the writer showed us enough hints that the things are 
not as they supposed to be at the end, despite Harry being happy and 
all that, that not everything is good ad happy in Dutch kingdom?

Thanks,

Alla