A sandwich

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 178693

> >>lizzyben: 
> > <snip>
> > House elves subplot - Introduction: Harry first wants to free    
> > Dobby, Hermione forms SPEW to fight for house elf rights.        
> > Resolution: The only free house elf dies, Harry accepts his role 
> > as slave-owner, Hermione gives up on house elf rights to accept   
> > the status quo.

> >>Pippin:
> This is a highly selective reading, IMO. The issue of refusing to   
> benefit from slave labor was raised and dispatched in GoF, with     
> Hermione's abortive hunger strike.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And the issue of House Elves being freed was dispatched in DH with 
the death of Dobby and with Harry's embracing the life of a slave-
owner.  How does this make lizzyben's reading selective?

> >>Pippin:
> There is no simple heartening answer, because there is no simple
> heartening answer in the real world.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But there *is* a simple heartening answer in the books.  Owning a 
slave is perfectly fine if the slave wants to be owned.  RL is a bit 
messier, but JKR has created a world where everything is neat.  
Kreature is happy to be owned and Harry is happy to own him.  Cue 
credits.

> >>Lizzyben:
> <snip>
> > Resolution - Harry hatches a plan to double-cross a goblin, just 
> > like a proper wizard should, and decides that goblin customs just 
> > don't matter. He is rewarded for this attitude when the Sword    
> > magically goes from the goblin to its proper place in wizarding   
> > hands. 

> >>Pippin:
> Neville, who has *not* mistreated goblins, recovers the sword. The 
> sword does properly belong in Gryffindor hands, and Harry, not     
> acting like a true Gryffindor, loses it.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And only a "goblin fanatic" would question the idea that wizards are 
perfectly correct in their views and goblins are wrong.  After all, 
wizards have flags. <g>  (That's an Eddy Izzard joke about how 
England conquered the world through the cunning use of flags.)  
The "superiour" culture dictates to the weaker culture how things are 
going to be.  Again, the pecking order is made very clear and Harry 
is in the class on top. And again I'm left wondering how Lizzyben's 
reading is subversive.  It's right there in the text: goblins are 
wrong and wizards are right.


> >>Lizzyben:
> > In every subplot, Harry & Hermione go from tolerance of these    
> > magical creatures, to learning that they actually should have a   
> > second-class status in wizarding society. 

> >>Pippin:
> In every subplot, Harry and Hermione go from apathy or ignorant 
> hope to the knowledge that  achieving a more equitable  society will
> be difficult, but improvements can and should be made. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Where or where do you get this Pippin?  Seriously, some straight 
forward, non-symbolic text that clearly states that the state of the 
WW bothers Harry and he's going to do something about it though it 
may take years.  Something concrete please.

> >>Pippin:
> But what Harry, Ron and Hermione do about discrimination in their
> world does not matter in the end. All that matters is what we do, in
> ours. A glorious ending which gives you a happy feeling inside
> will not raise the minimum wage or feed a hungry child (except 
> insofar as JKR donates her earnings to  her causes. <g>)

Betsy Hp:
And this is the easy out, IMO. Because this discussion is *about* 
what Harry and Hermione and Ron do and think about the state of their 
world.  Lizzyben has posited (and I agree) that in the end they 
embrace their world and the power it gives them, with no worries 
about the lesser beings.

You state this sort of reading is subversive but then you finish off 
by saying it doesn't matter.  I find this frustrating. (That may be 
coming through. <g>)  If the reading is subversive show me evidence 
*in DH* that Harry is fighting the powers that be, not becoming one 
of them.

> >>Pippin:
> The bigots are not right any more than Hagrid was right about
> Slytherin, or Ron was right about poisonous mushrooms not
> changing their spots.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Gah!  But Hagrid *was* right as per DH.  Ron *was* right as per DH.  
SLYTHERIN WALKED OUT!  How do you turn that text around?  Because the 
way it stands, the way I read it, Slytherins are bad and cannot 
change.  They are poison and cannot be trusted in times of trouble.  
At least that's how I read DH.  I think an argument can be made that 
as the bad guys Slytherins aren't supposed to be anything but rotten. 
(I see problems with how JKR went about doing this, though.)  
However, this idea that we're supposed to somehow glean from the text 
where Slytherin is doing everything except actually *say* call us 
Judas, that Slytherins actually have some good in them at heart and 
at some point where we'll never see it they'll finally be accepted as 
good upstanding members of the WW is... frankly, I just don't see it, 
and so far nothing has been provided for me too see it.


Betsy Hp