A sandwich

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 178700


>
> > >>lizzyben: 
> > > <snip>
> > > House elves subplot - Introduction: Harry first wants to free    
> > > Dobby, Hermione forms SPEW to fight for house elf rights.        
> > > Resolution: The only free house elf dies, Harry accepts his role 
> > > as slave-owner, Hermione gives up on house elf rights to accept   
> > > the status quo.
> 
> > >>Pippin:
> > This is a highly selective reading, IMO. The issue of refusing to   
> > benefit from slave labor was raised and dispatched in GoF, with     
> > Hermione's abortive hunger strike.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> And the issue of House Elves being freed was dispatched in DH with 
> the death of Dobby and with Harry's embracing the life of a slave-
> owner.  How does this make lizzyben's reading selective?

Pippin:
It excludes  the part where Hermione says she wants to take SPEW
further, in OOP, and the part where she tells Scrimgeour she means
to do some good in the world, in DH. Those plans did not revolve
around Dobby, and there's no reason to think they died with him.

> 
> > >>Pippin:
> > There is no simple heartening answer, because there is no simple
> > heartening answer in the real world.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> But there *is* a simple heartening answer in the books.  Owning a 
> slave is perfectly fine if the slave wants to be owned.  RL is a bit 
> messier, but JKR has created a world where everything is neat.  
> Kreature is happy to be owned and Harry is happy to own him.  Cue 
> credits.

Pippin:
"I told you not to call her Mudblood!' snarled Harry, but the elf
was already punishing himself: He fell to the ground and banged
his forehead on the floor.
"Stop him -- stop him!" Hermione cried. "Oh, don't you see now
how sick it is, the way they've got to obey?" --DH ch 10

Regulus, who died to save Kreacher, ordered him to destroy
the locket. And Kreacher, who could not do it, "punished himself,
he tried again, he punished himself, he tried again." DH ch 10

Would you please explain to me what's simple and heartening
and perfectly fine about that? Seriously? Because I don't see it. 
It's sick that House Elves have to punish themselves if they
disobey, and it's shown  in the books that being owned
by a good master will not change that. 

> > >>Pippin:
> > Neville, who has *not* mistreated goblins, recovers the sword. The 
> > sword does properly belong in Gryffindor hands, and Harry, not     
> > acting like a true Gryffindor, loses it.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> And only a "goblin fanatic" would question the idea that wizards are 
> perfectly correct in their views and goblins are wrong.

Pippin:
And only a wizard fanatic would suggest that wizards are perfectly
correct in their treatment of goblins and never wrong. "Goblins
have good reason to dislike wizards, Ron," said Hermione. "They've
been treated brutally in the past." That Griphook happens to be
lying or mistaken about the sword does not mean that goblins
have no legitimate complaints about wizards. That's right there
in the text too. "There has been fault on both sides. I would 
never claim that wizards have been innocent."

 > 
> > >>Lizzyben:
> > > In every subplot, Harry & Hermione go from tolerance of these    
> > > magical creatures, to learning that they actually should have a   
> > > second-class status in wizarding society. 
> 
> > >>Pippin:
> > In every subplot, Harry and Hermione go from apathy or ignorant 
> > hope to the knowledge that  achieving a more equitable  society will
> > be difficult, but improvements can and should be made. 
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Where or where do you get this Pippin?  Seriously, some straight 
> forward, non-symbolic text that clearly states that the state of the 
> WW bothers Harry and he's going to do something about it though it 
> may take years.  Something concrete please.

Pippin:
"I've said all along that wizards would pay for how they treat House
Elves. Well, Voldemort did...and so did Sirius."

Harry had no retort. As he watched Kreacher sobbing on the floor,
he remembered what Dumbledore had said to him, mere hours
after Sirius's death: I do not think Sirius ever saw Kreacher as a
being with feelings as acute as a human's...."

So, if you see House Elves as beings with feelings as acute as
a human's, how can you be okay with a system that makes them
punish themselves? Do I have to quote all the text where Hermione
talks about how the WW could be improved? Did she die at the
end of DH?  I must have missed it.<g>


> Betsy Hp:
> 
> You state this sort of reading is subversive but then you finish off 
> by saying it doesn't matter.  I find this frustrating. (That may be 
> coming through. <g>)  If the reading is subversive show me evidence 
> *in DH* that Harry is fighting the powers that be, not becoming one 
> of them.

Pippin:
Where is the evidence that he's becoming one of them? That he
thinks about Kreacher getting him a sandwich? Suppose Harry
gets his own sandwich -- he goes to the kitchen, which is cleaned
and maintained by House Elves, he gets some bread which has been
baked or purchased by House Elves, he spreads it with a filling which
was prepared by House Elves,  he puts it on a dish which has been 
washed by House Elves, from a cupboard where it was stored by 
House Elves-- if he thinks by making his own sandwich 
he's not dependent on Elf labor, he's a bloody hypocrite.

Of course he could leave the WW -- but then he's in no position
to help the Elves at all. 


> 
> > >>Pippin:
> > The bigots are not right any more than Hagrid was right about
> > Slytherin, or Ron was right about poisonous mushrooms not
> > changing their spots.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Gah!  But Hagrid *was* right as per DH.  Ron *was* right as per DH.  
> SLYTHERIN WALKED OUT!  How do you turn that text around?  Because the 
> way it stands, the way I read it, Slytherins are bad and cannot 
> change.  They are poison and cannot be trusted in times of trouble.  

Pippin:
If Hagrid was right, then Peter Pettigrew was a Slytherin since there
never was a dark wizard who wasn't in Slytherin, and Sirius was
a bad person because he had the same blood as Draco Malfoy.

The Slytherins walked out because McGonagall told them to leave. How is 
that treachery? They followed her orders, but they should have shown their
loyalty by disobeying? Excuse me? What kind of convoluted reasoning
is that?

Pippin