help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176541

> Alla:
>
> No, it really does not mean that to me. It is your conjecture that
> Marauders Map and Animagi are dark magic, and as far as I am
> concerned it is not supported by canon. My opinion obviously.

lizzyben:

As you've acknowledged, the definition of "Dark Magic" is notoriously
vague in this series. But, we know that whatever it is, Snape is an
expert in it & the defense against it. So, if the expert says that the
Map is "full of Dark Magic," I'm inclined to take his word for it.
And there's more corraboration. Most people would agree that Riddle's
Diary is "Dark Magic", correct? When Arthur Weasley finds out about
the Diary, he tells Ginny how she should be able to recognize Dark
Magic.:

"Ginny!" said Mr. Weasley, flabbergasted. "Haven't I taught you
anything. What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can
think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain? Why didn't
you show the diary to me, or your mother? A suspicious object like
that, it was clearly full of Dark Magic."

Now let's listen to Snape's diagnosis of the Marauder's Map:

     Snape pointed at the parchment, on which the words of Messrs.
Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were still shining. An odd,
closed expression appeared on Lupin's face.
     "Well?" said Snape.
     Lupin continued to stare at the map. Harry had the impression that
Lupin was doing some very quick thinking.
     "Well?" said Snape again. "This parchment is plainly full of Dark
Magic. This is supposed to be your area of expertise, Lupin. Where do
you imagine Potter got such a thing?"
     Lupin looked up and, by the merest half-glance in Harry's
direction, warned him not to interrupt.
     "Full of Dark Magic?" he repeated mildly. "Do you really think so,
Severus? It looks to me as though it is merely a piece of parchment
that insults anybody who reads it. Childish, but surely not dangerous?
I imagine Harry got it from a joke shop—"

Lupin is lying his head off here, of course.  Not only about the makers
of the item, but also about the *nature* of the item.  Why? Does he know
that the map's real function *does* use Dark Magic?   Mr. Weasley &
Snape even use the same phrase to diagnosis these objects - the item is 
"full of Dark Magic." Both items "think for themselves" and can respond
to questions on their own.  You can't see where either item "keeps its
brain" or who  is actually behind the item.  Filch thought that  the Map
was a "suspicious item", just like Mr. Weasley says that the Diary was a
"suspicious item."  Based on Mr. Weasley's own criteria for recognizing
"Dark" objects, the Maurader's Map qualifies as "Dark Magic".

And let's look at how the two items work:

Riddle's Diary:
     "Harry sat on his four-poster and flicked through the blank pages
... Excited, Harry loaded up his quill a second time and wrote, "My
name is Harry Potter." The words shone momentarily on the page and
they, too, sank without trace. Then, at last, something happened.
Oozing back out of the page, in his very own ink, came words Harry
had never written.
"Hello, Harry Potter. My name is Tom Riddle. How did you come by my
diary?"

Marauder's Map:
     ""Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to
yield the information you conceal!" Snape said, hitting the map with his
wand.
      As though an invisible hand were writing upon it, words appeared
on the smooth surface of the map.
     "Mooney presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him
to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business."
     Snape froze. Harry stared, dumbstruck, at the message. But the map
didn't stop there. More writing was appearing beneath the first. "

They work in almost the same exact way - someone asks a question or
makes a comment, and the item responds with the personality of its
maker. Both are seemingly blank, but writing appears when the object
wishes to respond. There are a *number* of parallels here - are we
really not supposed to notice these similarities?

Alla:
> So, when James just hated Dark Arts that means to me precisely that -
>  that he just hated Dark Arts. Of course it seems that jinxes and
> hexes Marauders used widely, just as Slytherins did, but using the
> jinx that has a minor touch of Dark Magic to me is not the same as
> being well versed in Dark Arts, like at all.

lizzyben:

Uh-huh. James hated "Dark Arts", but used "Dark Magic" in the form of
jinxes, hexes, and curses. The only definition we have for curses is
that they are the "worst of dark magic," and we see James using curses.
We see James creating a map that at least arguably uses Dark Magic.
Based on every definition of Dark Magic in this series, James is using
Dark Magic. Oh, but he just hates Dark Magic, & proves that by beating
up Snape. Yeah, right. Even the defense here is hair-splitting - using a
"minor touch of Dark Magic" is not the same as being well-versed in Dark
Magic? Why not? We're never shown any other type of Dark Magic beyond
these kinds of violent spells - curses, hexes, etc.  And we know that
James used those kinds of spells all the time - isn't he well-versed in
them?  Now, if you go w/my alternate definition of "Dark Magic" :), it
isn't Dark when James does this because he isn't a Slytherin. That seems
to be what the book is saying.

I find the parallels fascinating, because they're *there*. In SWM, James
does the exact same thing to Snape that the Death Eater does to Mrs.
Roberts - lifting the victim into the air against their will, then
flipping them over to show their underwear.  Is one good & one bad? Fred
& George nearly kill Montague by slamming  him into a closet, in the
same chapter where Harry sees James & co. tormenting Snape. If
Gryfindors are really supposed to be "teh good" & Slytherins "teh evil",
why are these parallels here at all?

Alla:
> And aren't animagi taught in Hogwarts, just later than Marauders
> learned how to do that? ( do not have PoA with me right now) I guess
> Mcgonagall is really into Dark Arts as well, by your definition.
>
> Again IMO.
>

lizzyben:

McGonagall is a licensed Animagus, professor of Transfiguration. The
Marauders are 15-year-old kids who learned how to use restricted magic.
Who broke many rules in order to learn how to become Animagi, and then
to secretly escape in Animagi form.  How did they learn this? It isn't
taught at Hogwarts.  They had to have learned from books in the
"restricted" part of the library. That's the "dark arts" section, as
well - a good place to find some new amusing hexes. I can totally see
the Marauders enjoying learning this kind of magic, along w/assorted
curses & hexes, for fun. They would never associate that w/anything
dangerous, because only Slytherins become "Dark Wizards" or Death
Eaters. Except that, eventually, one of them became exactly that.


lizzyben



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