Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 176544

> lizzyben:
> 
> As you've acknowledged, the definition of "Dark Magic" is 
notoriously
> vague in this series. 

Alla:

I said it is imprecise for me, not notoriously vague, so could we 
not make me acknowledge something I did not? If something does not 
translate in the valid categories for you, it does not mean that it 
cannot be valid for anybody else. Definition of Dark Magic in the 
series for me lacks mathematical precision, true. BUT I do not need 
it to be that strict. Despite minor inconsistencies, I have in my 
head clear enough picture of when the dark magic is dark. As I said, 
I know it when I see it, for me. To enjoy the story for me it is 
more than enough.


Lizzyben:
But, we know that whatever it is, Snape is an
> expert in it & the defense against it. So, if the expert says that 
the
> Map is "full of Dark Magic," I'm inclined to take his word for it.

<SNIP>


Alla:

That is your right of course. I am most definitely NOT taking 
Snape's word for it. 


Lizzyben:
> And there's more corraboration. Most people would agree that 
Riddle's
> Diary is "Dark Magic", correct? When Arthur Weasley finds out about
> the Diary, he tells Ginny how she should be able to recognize Dark
> Magic.:
<SNIP of the quote go UPTHREAD to read it>
> Now let's listen to Snape's diagnosis of the Marauder's Map:
<SNIP of the quote go UPTHREAD to read it>
>> Lupin is lying his head off here, of course.  Not only about the 
makers
> of the item, but also about the *nature* of the item.  Why? Does 
he know
> that the map's real function *does* use Dark Magic?   Mr. Weasley &
> Snape even use the same phrase to diagnosis these objects - the 
item is 
> "full of Dark Magic." Both items "think for themselves" and can 
respond
> to questions on their own.  You can't see where either item "keeps 
its
> brain" or who  is actually behind the item.  Filch thought that  
the Map
> was a "suspicious item", just like Mr. Weasley says that the Diary 
was a
> "suspicious item."  Based on Mr. Weasley's own criteria for 
recognizing
> "Dark" objects, the Maurader's Map qualifies as "Dark Magic".

Alla:

Really, Lupin **lies** here? And we know that how?

I read that argument many times in the past - that Map is a dark 
object based on comparison with diary, actually.

Arthur does NOT tell Ginny that it is a dark magic object because we 
do not see where it keeps its brain, doesn't he? He says never trust 
something like that and then says that it is full of dark magic, so 
I do not see it as definition. But say it is a definition.  As far 
as I am concerned, we know now that map really has no brain 
**anywhere**, not that it is hidden somewhere,  while diary clearly 
did have brain  IMO. Diary had a piece of Riddle's soul and as far 
as we know Map has nothing of the kind. I think it is like portraits 
that have magical imprints of their makers.




>Lizzyben:
> And let's look at how the two items work:
<SNIP>
> They work in almost the same exact way - someone asks a question or
> makes a comment, and the item responds with the personality of its
> maker. Both are seemingly blank, but writing appears when the 
object
> wishes to respond. There are a *number* of parallels here - are we
> really not supposed to notice these similarities?

Alla:

And here I thought that they work in totally different way. Like 
diary would pour Ginny soul in it and vice versa and Map did nothing 
of the sort, was just insulting Snape and showing hidden passages. 
Oh well. To each their own. If you find any similarities between 
those two objects, except that they both talk, that is your right 
and prerogative. I do not.



> lizzyben:
> 
> Uh-huh. James hated "Dark Arts", but used "Dark Magic" in the form 
of
> jinxes, hexes, and curses. The only definition we have for curses 
is
> that they are the "worst of dark magic," and we see James using 
curses.
> We see James creating a map that at least arguably uses Dark Magic.
<SNIP>

Alla:

No, **we** do not. I see no dark magic in Marauders map anywhere 
close.  You see it.



> Alla:
> > And aren't animagi taught in Hogwarts, just later than Marauders
> > learned how to do that? ( do not have PoA with me right now) I 
guess
> > Mcgonagall is really into Dark Arts as well, by your definition.
> >
> > Again IMO.
> >
> 
> lizzyben:
> 
> McGonagall is a licensed Animagus, professor of Transfiguration. 
The
> Marauders are 15-year-old kids who learned how to use restricted 
magic.
> Who broke many rules in order to learn how to become Animagi, and 
then
> to secretly escape in Animagi form.  How did they learn this? It 
isn't
> taught at Hogwarts.  

Alla:

 There is a quote  upthread that it is  taught in Hogwarts. But 
since I cannot check, I will leave it to uncertain for now. So, any 
piece of magic is dark if it is not taught in Hogwarts?

Or is it only dark if Marauders learned it?


Lizzyben:
They had to have learned from books in the
> "restricted" part of the library. <SNIP>


Alla:

They ** had have to**? Okay .