Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176556

> Prep0strus:
> 
> I think this is the main problem.  It is very difficult to nail down.
>  I, unlike a good number of posters, do not believe that
> Unforgiveables are simply a legal designation, and so find the good
> hat's use of them rather disturbing.  But based on the first 6 books,
> I really feel we were lead to believe that dark magic was something
> quite different - something needed for horcruxes and unforgiveables,
> and different from everyday hexes - the wizarding world is a little
> more brutal in what it seems to accept as the norm than the real
> world, imo, and so i think some of those hexes can fit into that
> definition.  But DH has so turned me around that I really don't have a
> good personal definition of dark magic.  But I do disagree with many
> of the assumptions made about what 'must' be dark magic.


lizzyben:

That's really my main point. I'm not trying to be difficult (maybe a
little), but mostly just pointing out how these terms are not defined
or explained at all. Yet the *connotation* remains - if it's Dark, we
assume it must be evil. If someone's using "Dark Magic", we assume
they must be evil as well. And yet, w/o a definition, it starts to
look like the *only* real distinction is in who is using this magic -
if it's a designated Good Guy, it's OK; if it's a designated Bad Guy,
it's dark magic.   

> Prep0strus:
> 
> With Alla here. I am not taking Snape's word for it.  I think he said
> that off the cuff to try to get his hands on something of harry's, to
> find out its secret, to make it seem like something he could
> confiscate.  Also, I don't think he can make a 'diagnosis' that
> quickly.  So I trust neither his words and motivation, nor his ability
> in this instance.

lizzyben:

Could be. Or maybe he was telling the truth, or maybe making an
assumption. Is it possible Lupin was involved in dark magic? IMO, yes.
It's his area of expertise as a DADA professor, after all. But w/o a
real understanding of what dark magic actually is, it's no fun to
debate it. It becomes a personal, individual interpretation.

> 
> Prep0strus:
> 
> With Alla again here.  I think it's ok to notice those similarities 
> but also the differences. <snip> It's very
> impressive magic, even building and growing on itself by identifying
> the residents of Hogwarts in a way that I don't think we see any other
> person or object able to do in the entire series... if only the
> Ministry could track people so well in regards to underage magic and
> the like... but powerful, interesting, and funny don't equal 'dark'. 
> It never attempts its own agenda, it is certainly not a horcrux, and
> we never see it in any way as 'evil', which I think, for the most
> part, is the meaning JKR wants us to think 'dark' has.  The diary is
> something quite, quite different.

lizzyben:

No doubt, the diary is more *evil* than the map. But I'm talking about
"Dark Arts" as a supposedly separate branch of magic - w/special
spells, items, & techniques that can be taught in a class. And here
the map seems to have definite similarities w/the "Dark Magic" diary.
The items seem to work in a similar way, and were perhaps created
w/similar techniques & spells. It's certainly different than anything
Harry & co. learn at Hogwarts. The Map isn't made using
transfiguration, potions, DADA... so what branch of magic was it
created with? Dark Arts, maybe? :)

> Prep0strus:
> 
> I'm certainly very confused about the use of dark magic, and what it
> means.  But, as you trust adult Snape, I trust teenage Lily when she
> does not think what the Marauders do is dark.  And I do trust that the
> Young Death Eaters WERE experimenting with dark arts.  Being in
> Slytherin at that time, it seemed to be the main activity.  I don't
> know what 'dark' means, but i still believe they were doing it, and to
> be against them, meant to be against the dark arts.

lizzyben:

I believe Lily meant what she said, but I'm still confused. JKR has
stated that hexes, jinxes & curses are "minor Dark Magic," and we see
the Marauders using hexes, jinxes & curses. So how can Lily say that
they don't use dark magic? Snape is confused too, & here I don't blame
him. Probably the young Death Eaters were more sinister, since they
became Death Eaters and all - but what would that mean? We don't even
know what the "Dark Arts" *are*. I see a lot of conflation here, where
James & co. are against dark magic & transfer that to Slytherins. They
hate Slytherins & transfer that to "dark magic". It all gets bunched
together as the "other" is associated w/everything evil.  


> Prep0strus:
> Powerful, dangerous, restricted, even mean-spirited doesn't mean dark.
>  I don't know what does... but it's clear those don't.
> 
> ~Adam
>

lizzyben: 

So what is it then? If mean-spirited, violent, aggressive spells
aren't dark, if even unforgiveable curses aren't dark - what is dark
then? Why are we supposed to hate the Slytherins for using "dark
magic" when we don't even know what that is, or how it's any different
from what our guys are doing?