Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 176548

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > lizzyben:
> > 
> > As you've acknowledged, the definition of "Dark Magic" is 
> notoriously
> > vague in this series. 
> 

Prep0strus:

I think this is the main problem.  It is very difficult to nail down.
 I, unlike a good number of posters, do not believe that
Unforgiveables are simply a legal designation, and so find the good
hat's use of them rather disturbing.  But based on the first 6 books,
I really feel we were lead to believe that dark magic was something
quite different - something needed for horcruxes and unforgiveables,
and different from everyday hexes - the wizarding world is a little
more brutal in what it seems to accept as the norm than the real
world, imo, and so i think some of those hexes can fit into that
definition.  But DH has so turned me around that I really don't have a
good personal definition of dark magic.  But I do disagree with many
of the assumptions made about what 'must' be dark magic.


> 
> 
> Lizzyben:
> But, we know that whatever it is, Snape is an
> > expert in it & the defense against it. So, if the expert says that 
> the
> > Map is "full of Dark Magic," I'm inclined to take his word for it.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That is your right of course. I am most definitely NOT taking 
> Snape's word for it. 
> 
> 

Prep0strus:

With Alla here. I am not taking Snape's word for it.  I think he said
that off the cuff to try to get his hands on something of harry's, to
find out its secret, to make it seem like something he could
confiscate.  Also, I don't think he can make a 'diagnosis' that
quickly.  So I trust neither his words and motivation, nor his ability
in this instance.

> 
> 
> >Lizzyben:
> > And let's look at how the two items work:
> <SNIP>
> > They work in almost the same exact way - someone asks a question or
> > makes a comment, and the item responds with the personality of its
> > maker. Both are seemingly blank, but writing appears when the 
> object
> > wishes to respond. There are a *number* of parallels here - are we
> > really not supposed to notice these similarities?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> And here I thought that they work in totally different way. Like 
> diary would pour Ginny soul in it and vice versa and Map did nothing 
> of the sort, was just insulting Snape and showing hidden passages. 
> Oh well. To each their own. If you find any similarities between 
> those two objects, except that they both talk, that is your right 
> and prerogative. I do not.
> 
> 

Prep0strus:

With Alla again here.  I think it's ok to notice those similarities -
but also the differences.  The diary turned out to be a Horcrux.  It
attempted to come to life by taking over Ginny.  Suspicion of the map
in the beginning is one thing, but it turns out to be a tool, not to
have motivations of its own.  The insult mechanism, as Lupin says,
sounds like something that could be picked up at a joke store.  If
you've ever conversed with a 'bot' on a chat device like AIM, it works
similarly.  It can pick up certain information from what is input, and
reply with something that makes some amount of sense.  The map having
a protection so that it could not be used by inappropriate people -
perhaps even ESPECIALLY Snape, seems quite likely.  It's very
impressive magic, even building and growing on itself by identifying
the residents of Hogwarts in a way that I don't think we see any other
person or object able to do in the entire series... if only the
Ministry could track people so well in regards to underage magic and
the like... but powerful, interesting, and funny don't equal 'dark'. 
It never attempts its own agenda, it is certainly not a horcrux, and
we never see it in any way as 'evil', which I think, for the most
part, is the meaning JKR wants us to think 'dark' has.  The diary is
something quite, quite different.



> 
> > lizzyben:
> > 
> > Uh-huh. James hated "Dark Arts", but used "Dark Magic" in the form 
> of
> > jinxes, hexes, and curses. The only definition we have for curses 
> is
> > that they are the "worst of dark magic," and we see James using 
> curses.
> > We see James creating a map that at least arguably uses Dark Magic.
> <SNIP>

Prep0strus:

I'm certainly very confused about the use of dark magic, and what it
means.  But, as you trust adult Snape, I trust teenage Lily when she
does not think what the Marauders do is dark.  And I do trust that the
Young Death Eaters WERE experimenting with dark arts.  Being in
Slytherin at that time, it seemed to be the main activity.  I don't
know what 'dark' means, but i still believe they were doing it, and to
be against them, meant to be against the dark arts.



> 
> Lizzyben:
> They had to have learned from books in the
> > "restricted" part of the library. <SNIP>
> 


Prep0strus:

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  But restricted doesn't mean dark.
 And i don't know why it would have to be dark for kids to learn it,
but light for adults.  Restricted doesn't mean dark, and neither does
'hard'.  Is there a shortcut that lets you do it if it's dark?  I say,
they learned how the same way any other wizard does - just before they
were supposed to.

Powerful, dangerous, restricted, even meanspirited doesn't mean dark.
 I don't know what does... but it's clear those don't.

~Adam