Dark Magic/ Ministry and Dementors/ Snape's role LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 176599

> zgirnius:
<SNIP>
> How do you reconcile your view with
> 
> > DH, "TPT":
> > "I heard what happened the other night. You went down that 
tunnel by
> the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever's 
down
> there-"
> 
> zgirnius:
> It seems to me, this says in black and white, that Severus did not
> tell her that what he faced was Lupin in werewolf form. <SNIP of 
the rest, read UPTHREAD)

Alla:


I should hide in shame and run. LOL. I cannot write properly at all 
today. 

I was saying that Snape knew what was in there (Lupin in his 
werewolf form) AND he told Lily that before the accident. Does that 
make sense to you? Of course it is a valid reading that Lily did not 
believe Snape. My point was that he **told** her, what he figured 
out and as we know it was a correct theory. So, she had all the 
facts IMO.


Regardless though whether Lily believed Snape or not, I do not see 
how it proves that Marauders used dark magic. It is not like any 
spell was used to make Snape go there ( especially if he figured out 
before hand). Was he in danger of being bitten or killed by Dark 
creature as classified, well, absolutely he was. He knew and he went 
nevertheless.

I think it also comes to the point of whether werewolf is a dark 
creature to me or human with the disease. As you know from the past 
discussions - to me he is human with the disease first and foremost 
and I do not see how Sirius telling Snape how to get to the Willow 
shows that Marauders use dark magic.

While IMO Mulciber clearly used **something** on Mary.


 
> > Alla:
> > Eh, do we know any other illnesses at night during full moon at 
the
> > potterverse? Personally I have no doubt that Snape sneaked it as
> > his "theory" and told it to Lily. I mean, she **says** I know 
your
> > theory. IMO of course.
> 
> zgirnius:
> To evaluate the matter, she would have to believe that it was not a
> theory, but the truth. Her use of the generic "whatever's down 
there"
> indicates she does not believe it.


Alla:

Why? I see  and understand where you are reading that she does not 
believe it as I said upthread, but to me it is open that she has in 
her mind that possibility too. She does not say after all that he 
saved you from whatever is down there, but not werewolf. As far as I 
know she can think that werewolf was that **whatever** down there, 
She has facts, Snape called them theory, why cannot she evaluate 
them?


> > Alla:
> > Well, yeah, I know. I was trying to say that her quote IMO can be
> > read that Voldemort and Harry are not relatives at all, you know?
> 
> zgirnius:
> Then I really do not understand the objection. She's not 
responsible 
> for people who jump to conclusions incorrectly based on accurate 
> statements she makes in interviews. <BIG SNIP>


Alla:

LOL, well I guess  because I consider my reading to be valid one as 
well. I mean the reading of the quote that Harry and Voldemort are 
not related.


> Magpie:
> As I said in my post, no *I* don't have trouble coming up with 
> reasons it's bad to have Dementors guarding Azkaban, but what I 
find 
> cruel is not always in line with what the books find cruel. I draw 
> the line before the books in general. Since I've been surprised in 
> the past at how cruel and callous (imo) characters can be when 
> they're putting people in their place, it's only arbitrary to me 
that 
> Dementors are the place the line is supposed to be drawn. <SNIP> 
You might shudder when 
you 
> think about Dementors--other people shudder when they think about 
> Marietta's scarred face only that's just what she deserved because 
> she's a traitor.

Alla:

I am afraid I still do not understand your argument completely. 
Sorry if I was not unclear, but I was mainly wondering why it is 
unclear for you that Dementors are horrible as if it is not 
described with enough details in the books? I am still not sure I 
understand. Are you saying the books do not explain enough why 
Dementors are evil?

I do get that you can come up with the reasons why they are bad, but 
those reasons are in the books with the quotes Jen provided, no?

Are you asking why the books show that the dementors are the 
**most** horrible punishmentn ever? More than anything else?

Well, to add to all what Jen said, to me it is also as simple as 
that 
they suck out not just your happiness, they suck out your soul. I 
think IMO it is clear that books draw it as the fate worse than 
death.

Are you just wondering why it is so? 

What dementors do - I can definitely relate as being the most 
horrible.

Marietta scars' well, yes, I do not think they come close to that. 
They do not suck out her soul for once.


> Magpie:
> But knowing it's Dark Magic doesn't make me immediately assume 
they 
> couldn't just be something JKR liked having for just that reason 
so 
> that the prison would be properly scary. Is the main reason this 
> punishment is off-limits that JKR's experienced depression and 
based 
> them on that?

Alla:

Um, I do not know if this is the main reason in JKR's head. She 
mentioned that she came up with the them as metaphors for 
depression, no? But regardless of what the justification is in her 
head, to me she clearly expressed why Dementors are the most 
horrible, offlimit punishment in the book. Losing soul to me does 
not come nearly in its horribleness to anything else.



JMO,

Alla.