Ministry and Dementors/

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 176615


> > Magpie:
> > As I said in my post, no *I* don't have trouble coming up with 
> > reasons it's bad to have Dementors guarding Azkaban, but what I 
> find 
> > cruel is not always in line with what the books find cruel. I 
draw 
> > the line before the books in general. Since I've been surprised 
in 
> > the past at how cruel and callous (imo) characters can be when 
> > they're putting people in their place, it's only arbitrary to me 
> that 
> > Dementors are the place the line is supposed to be drawn. <SNIP> 
> You might shudder when 
> you 
> > think about Dementors--other people shudder when they think about 
> > Marietta's scarred face only that's just what she deserved 
because 
> > she's a traitor.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am afraid I still do not understand your argument completely. 
> Sorry if I was not unclear, but I was mainly wondering why it is 
> unclear for you that Dementors are horrible as if it is not 
> described with enough details in the books? I am still not sure I 
> understand. Are you saying the books do not explain enough why 
> Dementors are evil?
> 
> I do get that you can come up with the reasons why they are bad, 
but 
> those reasons are in the books with the quotes Jen provided, no?
> 
> Are you asking why the books show that the dementors are the 
> **most** horrible punishmentn ever? More than anything else?

Magpie:
Basically, yeah! I don't need explanations for why it's horrible to 
be stuck with Dementors--I get that. But why should I recognize the 
use of that particular punishment as a sign of "underlying 
corruption?" I could just as easily believe it as a harsh punishment 
that was part of the prison experience or something, because I've 
already got times in the book where I think something is a bad sign 
and it's just fine. 

I used the wrong word in saying I thought the loss of them was 
a "victory" (I wasn't sure what word to use--sorry about that Jen!). 
I guess I was a bit confused about what Dumbledore's ideals meant in 
all of this. It seems like sort of an "I told you so" to me--
Dumbledore correctly predicted that the Dementors would side with. It 
ccontrasts with, for instance, my own predictions of things that 
might come back and bite the heroes on the butt, but it just seems to 
kind of show everybody should have listened to Dumbledore whenever he 
said anything.

Alla:
> 
> Well, to add to all what Jen said, to me it is also as simple as 
> that 
> they suck out not just your happiness, they suck out your soul. I 
> think IMO it is clear that books draw it as the fate worse than 
> death.
> 
> Are you just wondering why it is so? 

Magpie:
Yeah. Sucking out the soul is established, I think, as a fate worse 
than death (without knowing the details of what the experience is 
like), but I wouldn't automatically assume that therefore many of the 
characters in canon--or JKR--would think that was too harsh a 
punishment for some people. There are many places in the books where 
I thought I was seeing evidence of an underlying corruption in people 
that turned out to be no problem at all, so I wouldn't have been 
surprised at the Dementors being used in the future. As it is I admit 
I automatically find myself assuming that they don't use them anymore 
because they've learned not to trust them, not because they saw they 
were unduly cruel punishment for real criminals.

Marietta's scars are not on the level of sucking out the soul, but 
they still come across as psycho to me, and that was apparently just 
for fun. So long ago I stopped much trusting the characters' 
judgments in this area.

> > Magpie:
> > But knowing it's Dark Magic doesn't make me immediately assume 
> they 
> > couldn't just be something JKR liked having for just that reason 
> so 
> > that the prison would be properly scary. Is the main reason this 
> > punishment is off-limits that JKR's experienced depression and 
> based 
> > them on that?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, I do not know if this is the main reason in JKR's head. She 
> mentioned that she came up with the them as metaphors for 
> depression, no? But regardless of what the justification is in her 
> head, to me she clearly expressed why Dementors are the most 
> horrible, offlimit punishment in the book. Losing soul to me does 
> not come nearly in its horribleness to anything else.

Magpie:
Yes, I certainly see why in the book it's considered the most 
horrible punishment. But that doesn't automatically make me think 
that therefore it must be undeserved by some people according to the 
author or the characters (even if it's the kind of punishment they 
would shudder at at the same time). The main reason I know that the 
Dementors are a sign of bad attitudes at this point is not that it's 
so horrible to have your soul sucked out so nobody should have it 
done to them, but that Dumbledore says he's against them.

-m