Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 176810

> lizzyben:
> 
> It looks like we're on the same page there. The spell is dark (or 
> not) regardless of who is casting it. 

Mike:
Cool B-)


> > Mike:
> > But I do think it is well enough defined for me to "know it". And 
> > I trust my ability to understand that definition and not be ruled 
> > by my emotions when making this judgement call. YMMV
> 
> 
> lizzyben:
> 
> Yet you also say that you hope that the author is manipulating our 
> emotions - and that is her job.

Mike:
Yes, and I said this is not a judgement call that is ruled by my 
emotions. Whether JKR did a good job or not (NOT), *what* is Dark 
Magic is not an emotional call in my estimation. And if one lets it 
become an emotional judgement, then one will become confused by those 
emotions. "That one must not be Dark, Harry used it." Wrong, that's 
letting the Harry-is-Good filter color ones answer.

BTW, I forgot to address your question on dark vs Dark. You had asked 
if this is me/us constructing something that JKR has not shown in 
canon. First, let me recommend zgirnius' post #176584, in part:
*****
zgirnius:
I disagree. The definition is clear. All things called jinxes, hexes,
and curses are to differing degrees Dark, so are certain creatures we
see the students learning about, as well as other things specifically
identified as Dark (Horcruxes, Inferi-making, etc.).
******

That was a summary statement, she went into more detail up-post. This 
is what I read in the books. The outcome of some spells, though not 
always pleasant, did not rise to the level of Dark (Capital). It was 
a matter of degrees, as zgirnius said, and not that hard to guage 
objectively, imo. 

The point is that, as Adam said, JKR may not have defined Dark Magic 
very well, but we have been told many times that there is Dark Magic. 
And it isn't that hard to see which spells are mildly dark, for me.



> lizzyben:
> 
> What puzzles me is this dichotomy between what the author tells us 
> & what she shows us. That's what doesn't make sense. I mean, if we 
> truly are supposed to see Slyths as the bad ones, why is it that we 
> usually see Gryffindors beating *them* up instead of the other way 
> around? Why do we see more Gryffindor bullies than Slytherin 
> bullies? It's odd.

Mike:
Except the train rides home after books 4 & 5, I didn't see MCG 
getting beat up by HRH. (And no Gryff jinxed MCG on 5's ride home) 
And didn't I see Draco and Crabbe-n-Goyle bullying HRH on several 
train rides to Hogwarts? Like in books 1, 3, 4, & 6. I suppose the 
Slyths didn't land any jinxes, except 6 where Draco got his revenge 
with both a jinx and a stomp.


> lizzyben:
> 
> Well, that's exactly what I was trying to do - remove the "context" 
> from the canon & just report the events. "Context" is all the 
> imagery of "good, noble, wonderful Gryfs" vs. "evil, ugly, nasty 
> Slyths" that permeates the narrative. 

Mike:
Not exactly. Saying Harry tried to Crucio a teacher, full stop, is 
removing a little bit of the motivation, wouldn't you say? Like, he 
just witnessed this teacher murdering the Headmaster. That's context. 
That the teacher was evil, ugly, etc. or that Harry was good, noble, 
etc. is not context. Harry's use of Sectumsempra was stupid, but he 
didn't know what the spell did and he used it to block Draco's 
Crucio. And Draco fired first in this scuffle. That is also context.

But your report of the events, "This group regularly punched, jinxed, 
and cursed any student from House A who annoyed them" seems just as 
biased as what you railed against being a Gryff POV. "regularly" in 
the first three books? Other than Hermione's *one* slap of Draco have 
you got any other jinxes or curses HRH landed on MCG in the first 
three books? By my count, the answer is zero. Oh wait, we did have 
Harry tickling Draco during the dueling club. But then Draco hit 
first and last and with something a little less cute. 


> lizzyben:
> I just took the same events & gave it a different spin - and 
> it's amazing how much more sinister House B students start to 
> look once you start referring to them as "Dark Wizards" "gang"
> "dangerous" etc. It's all about the code words.

Mike:
Except if you ignore context and exaggerate those events then all you 
are doing is giving them spin.


> lizzyben:
> And also, I was pointing out that the Gryffindor students use an 
> awful lot of violence against other students. In fact, if you did a 
> comparison, I bet you'd find many more incidents of Gryffindor 
> students using "dark magic" against Slytherin students than the 
> reverse. And "dark magic" hexes are essentially violent spells of 
> different degrees. Why is that we so often see the "good guys" 
> using "dark magic"? Isn't that supposed to be a Slytherin thing? 
> Except it isn't.

Mike:
Since we spend 90% of the books following Harry, we were sure to see 
them using more spells of all sorts than we'd see from their 
Slytherin counterparts. BTW, where are all these dark spells used by 
Gryffs against the Slyth students? Do you mean the Trio, Fred and 
George against MCG in book 4? And might I counter with Draco's cursed 
neckless and poisoned mead in book 6? Which I believe almost killed 
two Gryffs.


> lizzyben:
> 
> <major snip>
>
> Slytherin students are the "bad guys", and also the "whipping boys"
> for the Gryffindor students. One role serves the other. If they 
> weren't so bad, it wouldn't be so much fun to beat them up.

Mike:
I'm going to shock you, because I essentially agree with you here and 
in the part I snipped. JKR does have the good guy Gryffs throwing out 
a lot of jinxes and hexes for laughs. I suppose she thought the 
adolescent, slap-stick humor would appeal to the younger male 
audience. Personally, I found Fred and George's one-liners much 
funnier than their magical pranks. Though those pranks often set up 
the one-liners. 

I do think that most of the semi-dark magic used by HRH was 
purposeful and justified. And, yeah, I wish she had put more jinxes 
and hexes from the Slyth students in the mix to justify the "Dark 
Arts" House motif she wants us to buy into. I suppose she thought 
having most of the DEs being former Slyths was enough. But 
considering the stage time imbalance in favor of the Gryffs, she 
could have done much more to back up her proposition.

Mike