Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 176834

Mike wrote:
> Except the train rides home after books 4 & 5, I didn't see MCG 
getting beat up by HRH. (And no Gryff jinxed MCG on 5's ride home) 
And didn't I see Draco and Crabbe-n-Goyle bullying HRH on several
train rides to Hogwarts? Like in books 1, 3, 4, & 6. I suppose the 
Slyths didn't land any jinxes, except 6 where Draco got his revenge
with both a jinx and a stomp. <snip>

> Since we spend 90% of the books following Harry, we were sure to see
them using more spells of all sorts than we'd see from their Slytherin
counterparts. BTW, where are all these dark spells used by Gryffs
against the Slyth students? Do you mean the Trio, Fred and George
against MCG in book 4? And might I counter with Draco's cursed 
neckless and poisoned mead in book 6? Which I believe almost killed 
two Gryffs.

Carol responds:
I'm not on any particular side in this discussion (still trying to
figure out my own views), but I want to throw in my two cents here
(should that be "tuppence" and do Brits use that expression?). 

It's true that no Gryffindor joined in the mass jinxing and hexing by
six DA members against three Slytherins in OoP, but the definition of
"good guys" has now been expanded to include Hufflepuffs, such as
Ernie Macmillan and Justin F-F, and Ravenclaws, such as Terry Boot and
Anthony Goldstein. And it's interesting that two girls (both
Hufflepuffs) joined in this time, Hannah Abbott and Susan Bones. MCG,
as you call them (I thought at first that you meant McGonagall <eg>),
resemble "three gigantic slugs" when the DA are done with them and are
hoisted into the luggage rack by Harry, Justin, and Ernie and left ot
"ooze" (864). The attack was not self-defense but a more-or-less
preemptive strike since it appears that Draco and company were
planning to attack HRH didn't get any hexes in before the DA members
jumped out of their compartment (and Crabbe and Goyle usually raise
their fists rather than their wands. When do we see them casting a
single spell before DH?).

It's clear from Narcissa's reaction in HBP that she blames *Harry* for
the condition in which she found her son at the end of the fifth-year
train ride (not to mention the previous year, when he was actually
involved): "If you attack my son again, I shall ensure that it is the
last thing you ever do" (HBP Am. ed. 113). However, Draco's stomp has
nothing to do with hexing in the corridors of the train or the school;
it's revenge for Harry's role in Lucius Malfoy's arrest ("That's from
my father," HBP 154), carrying out the vow he made in OoP: "You're
going to pay. *I'm* going to make you pay for what you've done to my
father" (OoP Am. ed. 851). Having frozen Harry in an absurd position,
covered him with his own Invisibility Cloak to be overlooked and sent
back to London (retaliation for spying on Draco and his friends,
presumably), he takes care to tread on Harry's invisible fingers
(maybe he finds them by feel or remembers where they are), perhaps as
retribution for having been stepped on himself in GoF (by George,
IIRC, but Draco probably doesn't know or care since it all comes back
to Harry). At that point, IMO, Draco stops caring about Harry and
gives his attention to more weighty matters like fixing the Vanishing
Cabinet and killing Dumbledore.

As for the necklace and the mead nearly killing Gryffindors, that's
pure coincidence. Imperio'd Rosmerta gave the necklace to the first
girl who entered the restroom; the mead was supposed to have been a
Christmas present for DD but Slughorn kept it. He could as easily have
drunk it himself, and, indeed, poured glasses for himself and Harry as
well as "Ralph." I'm not defending Draco (though I pity him); I'm just
saying that harming Gryffindors was no part of his plan. Both cases,
especially the necklace, were poorly thought-out desperation measures
that could have harmed a staff member or a student from any House as
easily as a Gryffindor.

If we look at the duel outside Snape's class in GoF (Am. ed. 298-99),
where the spells hit each other and are deflected onto Hermione and
Goyle, I'd say that Harry's boil hex (Furnunculus) is at least as
nasty and considerably more painful than Draco's Densuageo (which,
incidentally, is one of the many bad things in the books that ends up
having unintended good consequences, the shortening and straightening
of Hermione's teeth--no credit to Draco, of course). In the GoF train
scene, Harry again uses the Furnunculus Curse (probably a hex based on
relative "darkness" though the narrator refers to a "jumble of jinxes"
and treats it as lightly as George's Jelly-Legs jinx). The two
combined somehow result in "little tentacles all over [Crabbe's] face"
(GoF Am. ed. 730), which George finds amusing. Meanwhile, Fred steps
on Goyle and George treads on Draco as the enter the compartment (730). 

Those gallant Gryffindors.

I do understand Harry's anger, but I think a raised wand and a "Get
out now or I'll hex you!" would have sufficed. (He later threatens to
hex the twins if they don't take the TWT winnings, GoF 733.)

BTW, JKR can't make up her mind regarding hexes and jinxes. The
narrator says that "all three of them [HRH] had used a different hex"
but then refers (alliteratively) to the "jumble of jinxes" later on
the same page (730). It seems to me that she's going for sound effects
rather than distinguishing levels of darkness here. We don't know what
the other spells are, but it's five Gryffindors against three
Slytherins. Two of the Gryffindors attack from behind. Moreover, Draco
has not raised his wand. He has merely said (admittedly maliciously
and provocatively) that "Mudbloods" and Muggle-lovers (clearly
referring to Hermione and Ron) will be the first to go now that the
Dark Lord is back. (The reference to Cedric Diggory being the first is
almost an aside, a self-correction.) Crabbe and Goyle have done
nothing more than flank Draco as usual and leer. Yet all three end up
unconscious on the floor, and the narrator describes them as being
"covered in hex marks" (733).

It's hard to say whether JKR approves of this behavior, or of Harry's
sneaking into the Slytherin compartment to spy in HBP. (Harry's
tendency to eavesdrop perhaps parallels the young Snape's.) She
clearly doesn't approve of barging into someone's train compartment
and uttering threats. Clearly, the Gryffindors see themselves as being
in the right here, but I'm not sure that the reader is supposed to,
especially given the more sympathetic depiction of Draco in later
books when, ironically, he is actually a Death Eater himself (though
an apprentice one).

An interesting distinction here: Draco from the end of GoF through the
beginning of HBP thinks that he has chosen the *winning* side; HRH and
co. think that they've chosen the *right* side. Unfortunately, they
also seem to think that being the good guys justifies the use of 

Mike:
<snip> > JKR does have the good guy Gryffs throwing out a lot of
jinxes and hexes for laughs. I suppose she thought the adolescent,
slap-stick humor would appeal to the younger male audience.
Personally, I found Fred and George's one-liners much funnier than
their magical pranks. Though those pranks often set up the one-liners.

Carol:
True, but they also attack a defenseless Muggle and they start the
trend of stepping on unconscious or helpless people. Hitting people
when they're down, so to speak, is *not* gallant, nor is tripping a
boy you don't even know as he leaves your compartment (James in "The
Prince's Tale"). The Gryffindors (at least, those close to Harry) are
on the winning side and value bravery, but they don't really
understand what valor and chivalry and gallantry--the Gryffindor
ideal--really is. (And, please, fellow posters, don't attack me by
saying that chivalry is an antiquated, anti-feminist virtue. I'm
talking about what Godric Gryffindor, a medieval wizard, valued, and
what his House is supposed to be about. See James's imaginary sword
and the requirements for retrieving the Sword of Gryffindor.) 
> 
Mike:
> I do think that most of the semi-dark magic used by HRH was 
purposeful and justified. 

Carol:
We disagree there. It's mostly kids arguing with each other and using
magic to settle the arguments. And in HBP, Harry sinks to James's
level (hexing people in the hallways) by hitting Crabbe with the
toenail hex with no stated provocation and twice hitting the
defenceless Filch with Langlock. Ginny, too, seems to hex people who
annoy her, particularly Zacharias Smith, who isn't even a Slytherin.
And equal-opportunity Hermione hexes Ron and McClaggen, both Gryffindors. 

Purposeful and justified? IMO, only in the DE chase and the battle of
Hogwarts. Even in the TWT, Harry doesn't use any Dark magic, IIRC, nor
does he use it in the graveyard or the confrontation with Voldemort. I
do understand the use of Imperius in the Gringotts scene even though I
don't like it. As for that "gallant" Crucio of Harry's and
McGonagall's Imperius Curse, good thing the battle was over quickly or
"our side" would be in danger of succumbing to the use of evil means
to control evil like Barty Crouch Sr. And how about those daggers McG
conjured? Geez! (But then she rounds up *desks* to fight against the
real DEs. Maybe she decided that she didn't like Dark magic after all.
I can only hope.)

Mike:
> And, yeah, I wish she had put more jinxes and hexes from the Slyth
students in the mix to justify the "Dark Arts" House motif she wants
us to buy into.

Carol:
Exactly. *Buy into.* Yes, Mulciber becomes a Death eater who
specializes in the Imperius Curse, but what did he *try* to use
against Lily's friend Mary McDonald? We're not told, much less shown.
We're just supposed to take Lily's word that it's Dark magic and
"evil" and Mulciber is "creepy" (DH Am ed. 673-74). What makes
Mulciber "evil" and James merely an arrogant, bullying "toerag"? And
how does Lily know that something Mulciber *tried* (and failed) to do
is "Dark magic"? (I'm not criticizing Lily, folks. I'm criticizing JKR.) 

As for jinxes and hexes, we see the one the HBP invented, and except
for Sectumsempra, they're all of the "amusing" variety that Harry and
Ron find funny (though Hermione doesn't because they come from the
HBP's book and aren't "Ministry approved." Hey. Is that our clue?
"Dark magic" is unapproved by the Ministry? Shame on James for using
Levicorpus, then, and shouldn't Lily have criticized it for that
reason, unless she knew it was Sev's own spell used against him?) And
Muffliato, of course, isn't even a hex or jinx, just a charm.

We also see Severus's early interest in *Defense Against* the Dark
Arts (that DADA OWL) but the only evidence of an interest in Dark
magic is Sectumsempra and his later expertise in healing Dark curses.
We see none at all of Draco's supposed interest in Dark magic, unless
we count his expressed desire for a Hand of Glory in CoS (which JKR
forgets that his father didn't buy for him).

Mike:
> I suppose she thought having most of the DEs being former Slyths was
enough. But considering the stage time imbalance in favor of the
Gryffs, she could have done much more to back up her proposition.

Carol:
Exactly. I think it's particularly ugly and unfair of JKR to have
Harry state that the Slytherin common room "is full of skulls and
stuff" (DH Am. ed. 450) when he saw no such things in CoS (is JKR
confusing the Slytherin common room with Borgin and Burkes?) and to
have the Snatcher Scabior (not a real DE) agree that he must be "a
little Slytherin" (450). Greyback, of course, would not know the
difference, never having been allowed to attend Hogwarts because he
was a werewolf (though we know now that he's a wizard). But if Scabior
is a Slytherin, he should know that the statement isn't true (as
should Harry--and JKR).

For the record, here's the description from CoS:

"The Slytherin common room was a long, low underground room with rough
stone walls and eeiling from which round, greenish lamps humg on
chains. A fire was crackling under an elaborately carved mantelpiec
ahead of them, and several Slytherins wer silhouetted around in in
high-backed chairs" (CoS Am. ed. 221). Not a skull or Dark artifact in
sight.

Anyway, I stand by my contention in earlier posts that the last two
books show the human side of Slytherin, which Harry finally sees. But
nevertheless, JKR's clear association between DEs and Slytherin (which
is not necessarily what the reader sees, especially in Harry's
generation, in which only Draco actually becomes a DE--and hates it)
is unmistakeable, and that particular detail seems to cement it
(though it's actually intended as proof that Harry isn't a Muggle-born
because "there ain't a lot of Mudblood Slytherins" (DH 450).

And we don't really know whether the DEs (except for Wormtail) are all
former Slytherins. Few of the women seem to have joined, with only
Bellatrix Lestrange and Alecto Carrow being actual DEs (Narcissa is a
sympathizer and supporter). Of the men, I can recall only the
Lestrange brothers, Avery, Mulciber, Malfoy, the long-dead Wilkes and
Rosier, and the renegades Regulus Black and Severus Snape as known
Slytherins of Snape's generation (and Nott from an earlier one, though
he has a teeenage son). Is Karkaroff a Hogwarts alumnus (and
Slytherin) or is he from Durmstrang? What about Dolohov? Were Travers
and Yaxley Slytherins? The execrable Carrows? The non-DE but
Muggle-born persecuting Umbridge? We're not told.

It seems to me that the pure-blood supremacy agenda takes center stage
in DH and Dark magic is just a side issue, loosely associated with
Slytherin House and the DEs (even more so with Voldemort and
Grindelwald). It's as if JKR is dumping all the forms of evil in her
imaginary world onto Voldemort's side, tainting Slytherin House in the
process. 

But if we look at the actual Slytherins we know, chiefly Snape,
Slughorn, and the Malfoys, we see something different. Draco and his
parents are undoubtedly pure-blood supremacists who own some Dark
artifacts, and Lucius Malfoy has no objection to using the
Unforgiveable Curses, but it's unclear how Narcissa feels about them
and Draco clearly hates having to perform them. Slughorn is not a DE,
is only mildly prejudiced (compare Fudge), and is not associated with
Dark magic at all. And Snape uses "Mudblood" only once in canon
(perhaps he used it before, as Lily says, but we don't hear it) and
chastises Phineas Nigellus for using the term. He invents one Dark
spell but also invents the countercurse, and he uses his knowledge of
the Dark Arts for healing or to save lives while keeping his cover
(George's ear) in HBP and DH.

I think we have to read *around* Harry's pov as expressed both by the
narrator and by Harry himself to see what is really there. And,
regardless of JKR's intentions, Slytherin per se, particularly in
Harry's generation, is not as bad as it's painted. Draco, with his DE
father and outspoken anti-"Mudblood" sentiments, is the representative
of Slytherin that Harry sees most of. And Draco learns as many lessons
as Harry does in HBP and DH.

Maybe, with a non-DE HoH who fought against Voldemort in the Battle of
Hogwarts, Slytherin House will have a chance to turn around in terms
of its pure-blood superiority ethic. But meanwhile, its reputation as
the house associated with Dark magic seems to be almost wholly unfounded.

Carol, who forgot to mention that the "dark magic" (jinxes and hexes)
that the kids use against each other seems to be passed from one
student to another rather than taught in the classroom